Todd from Abusements

All right, welcome to this episode of Punk Club and Kabashian.

This episode, I have Todd with me from Montgomery, Alabama, and he sings for a really fun band called the Abusements.

Before we get into a conversation, a couple housekeeping things.

One sort of the parent organization podcast group.

I belong to the Alabama Take.

They have a bunch of other podcasts.

I recommend going and checking those out, covering pop culture and sports and reading and Star wars and that kind of stuff.

So if you're into that kind of stuff, please jump over there, take a look at it.

I also do another podcast with my son called Hidden Creatures, and it's about cryptids and paranormal and aliens and fairies and stuff like that.

So if you're into stuff like that, also jump over to Hidden Creatures.

Give that a listen.

My son would be so stoked if you did that.

Lastly, speaking of my son, he is here in the house.

I also have some dogs and a wife, and sometimes they all show up in the background of these.

I have chickens that peck at the door right where I record.

So if you hear any of those things, that's what they are.

With that.

Todd, would you like to give yourself any further introduction versus my very small, brief one?

Well, there ain't nobody here but us chickens, huh?

Yeah.

Todd Sauvigne, and I'm with Abusements, and I am 63 years old.

I am not an attorney, and shucks, I don't know where you want to start.

I kind of go way back in this, and I was one of these.

As a high schooler, I was fortunate to get involved in a very small but intense punk rock scene in Portland, Oregon, that sort of dominated.

Hold on.

Right there.

Like that.

You're jumping ahead of me just a little bit.

So, Portland, 14, long time ago.

Do you remember the first punk song you ever heard?

Yes.

What was Beat on the Brat by the Ramones got played on the Dr. Demento radio program, which I was one of these avid listeners, as this was before punk rock was really a thing.

I don't know if he ever played Beat on the Brat by the Ramones more than once on that program, but he played it, and I had read about the Ramones, and I was like, oh, so this is punk rock.

I'm not that impressed.

I remember being left a little cold by it, and it's.

It was like, okay, well, I guess I get the joke.

It was the Sex Pistols that turned me on.

That was the Epiphany.

And that happened some short time later.

Cool.

Fair enough.

And then sort of.

Next question.

Is how long.

Do you remember how long it was or at what point in time you went from, okay, like, I know this punk rock thing exists.

I've heard the music.

But now, like, there's a community, there's a scene, all of that.

Oh, well, it took a while because I was stuck in this backwater of Portland, Oregon.

And the day I first laid eyes on the Sex pistols in this 30 second clip on TV late at night, it was a. I believe it was a bit of the Anarchy in the UK film clip.

And I was like, holy, this is for me.

My music is here.

I can't describe to you how much I hated the Allman Brothers and Led Zeppelin and all of this long hair freedom rock.

I thought that stuff was crap and I never liked it.

And to have punk rock come along, I was like, hallelujah, my music is here.

This is guaranteed to infect, infuriate everybody.

And in the next second I realized and I've completely missed the train.

I'm stuck here in Portland, Oregon.

All of punk rock is happening in London and New York.

I'm.

I've blown it already.

And it took a couple of years for things to really get rolling.

But by 78, there started being all ages shows in Portland.

And we picked up on that stuff.

Man, I tell you, as soon as I was cognizant of what was going on and able to like put it together, you know, well, we would get on the bus and go across town.

And his first show was.

It was the DOA and the Dills.

I can't remember who it was.

The Ziplocs opening or Hari Kari or who it was.

But DOA and the Dills and DOA made an enormous impression on me.

And this is the three piece doa.

The.

The first lineup.

And my mind was blown by Randy Rampage.

My life was changed by that gig, I think.

And I knew Good Boy was getting going.

Okay.

And we couldn't stay for the Dills because the last bus was gonna come and it was a school night and there was no parent pickup.

We were clear across town.

So I had to bail on the Dills, which I really regret.

I never got to see them.

But I'm way.

I'm.

I'm way off topic.

Where are we going with this?

No, that was all perfect.

Okay.

And a good segment.

This guy, I can't even remember.

I think 78.

Okay.

I was taking the bus, so I couldn't drive.

I must have been like, yeah, 14, 15.

15, I think.

Cool.

So at what point in time then?

From that to, like, okay, this is.

This is not just something I'm going to be like a passive participant in, but versus, like, an active person.

I was already a musician when punk rock came along, and that's thanks to mom and dad making me sit down and take piano lessons just like they'd been forced to, just like their parents had been forced to.

And so I was already a musician.

And then Bob Dylan kind of opened my ears to rock and roll.

Made me want to be a lyric writer even more than a musician.

So.

Because thanks to Bob Dylan, I was fully engaged and, you know, doing things like reading Rolling Stone and Cream magazine and stuff like this at a tender age.

So, yeah, it's funny you bring up Bob Dylan.

My son is 11, about turn 12, and he came home from school one day this year.

Picking him up from school, he got.

In and he said, one of my teachers thinks that Bob Dylan is punk rock.

And I said, okay, what do you mean by that?

He said, well, we were in history class and she asked us, you know, what kind of music we want to listen to.

He said, And I said, punk.

She put on Bob Dylan.

I was like, well, as a Bob Dylan, sort of is punk rock.

Like, I said, you know, you may not like you.

You may not find his music under the punk category in the record store, but if you look at what he was singing about and what he was doing, and that's sort of punk rock.

He's like Johnny Rotten to me, man.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, he's like D. Boone to me.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's done, you know, he's done a lot of stuff.

Bob's still out there, man.

He's playing tonight somewhere for, like, not very many people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've had the pleasure of seeing him a couple times, and sometimes it has been absolutely amazing, and sometimes it's been absolutely horrible.

Yeah, no, he can be real spotty.

He was tight and his band was on.

The last time I saw him, yeah, I saw Tom Petty blow him off stage.

And it was bad for Bob and it was bad for the crowd, and it was not that good for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers either.

I mean, they're out with this guy who they respected.

He was sucked.

Yeah.

Hard.

So, yeah, you know, we all have our.

Are off.

No, we'd be lucky to have off nights like that.

Okay, so.

Oh, yeah, I was at the amphitheater and I sucked.

We would be lucky.

We would be fortunate for that kind of off.

Okay, so how did that, like, you know, the musician pre Punk rock turn into a musician in punk rock?

Good question.

I don't.

As I said, I didn't have any interest in what I felt was hippie music.

And I really liked.

Well, I think the American Graffiti soundtrack album, which was a double LP packed with the greatest hits of the first wave of rock and roll, was probably the key document that shaped my hearing pre punk.

Okay.

And so that's thanks to that record.

And hats off to George Lucas, who compiled one hell of a good soundtrack album with practically every song that matters of the 1950s.

Yeah.

Certainly touching all the bases.

And so that's how I got into Chuck Berry and especially Little Richard.

And that was what I thought rock and roll was and should be.

Especially Little Richard.

You know, this stuff is just off the hook.

Yeah.

You know, Little Richard.

Arguably, an argument could be made for him to fall into the punk rock umbrella.

Also on that album was the Beach Boys, which was a big ear opener.

And their vision of an American teenagerhood that lasts all summer long and involves things like cars.

Anyway, their fake vision of American teenage hood and a California lifestyle that was aspirational, just, like, fit real well with my kind of, oh, I don't know, junior high.

Hormonally driven.

You know, I was nobody.

I was a geek in junior high.

I was a dork.

And, man, I wanted to click.

I wanted to be like Fonzie or something.

Right?

Yeah, That's a horrible thing to say, but, you know, that's.

That was sort of the frame of reference.

Yeah.

Well, okay.

I was not even Richie Cool.

I was a tweet.

And, you know, but we all thought we were little Fonzies.

But, you know, I assume at that point in time, like, that's sort of who the adolescent American hero was.

Right?

Like that.

That was about what you were presented or Evil Knievel or, you know.

Right.

I don't know what up with people.

Yeah.

There's a bunch of healthy young Republicans.

Right.

You know, and then, you know, Sid Vicious and Johnny Rodman walked through the door.

Oh, my guys are here.

Like, this was what I was waiting for.

This is gonna piss off everybody on the school bus and concern my par lately.

Yeah.

And that was definitely what I was going for because I hated those on the school bus.

Every day, they would play that Van Halen tape.

I was made to hate Van Halen.

Thanks to my classmates.

That was just all they knew and all they thought was cool.

And they would blast that every possible moment.

And you know what?

That was good music.

All right.

That was good Music, it just had the wrong fans at that.

Especially at that moment.

I was fortunate.

Later on, somebody invited me to see Van Halen, and I went along because they had a party in the back of their car.

Who cares about this band?

And they blew me away.

And they are geniuses, and I'm glad I saw them in their heyday, okay?

But you can be made to hate music by being such a partisan, and I was definitely a partisan, for better or worse.

You know, it happens.

I think also, as we grow older, sometimes we gain an appreciation for something that.

That we didn't have when we were.

Oh, yeah.

I know a lot of bands who.

When I first heard them or found them or whatever, I was like, God, not doing it.

But then with age, maturity, knowledge, I was like, you know what?

Still may not like them, but I can appreciate what they do.

I say to you listeners, don't be afraid to like what you like.

Don't be so intimidated by your peers or your own impression of what you should be doing to overlook stuff that you think is good and brings you pleasure.

All right?

Steely Dan is my secret vice.

And I can admit to it now, but that was deep undercover for a long time, okay?

And I know many people consider Steely Dan the worst music ever contrived, but it speaks to me so deeply.

So there you are.

Yeah.

I mean, like, I was also guilty of disliking bands not because of, like, their music, because I didn't like the people who listened to them.

And it's like, oh, I don't like this group of people.

So I don't like this band because this.

Yeah, it's basically.

I don't like Led Zeppelin because gross older teenagers like Led Zeppelin.

Yeah.

There you were gross people with long hair, like.

Like that kind of hippie music.

Like the Almonds now, folks, that was me as a kid, okay?

I love the Allman Brothers, and I adore Led Zeppelin.

I'm not stupid, okay?

I don't.

I don't want to hear from you all about this.

I. I do love these groups and Black Sabbath, too, okay?

It took.

It took a long time for my ears to open up.

Gotcha.

Yeah, it happens.

It's a journey, you know?

It's a journey.

Yeah, but I.

Absolutely.

I sold my autograph Ted Nugent, okay?

Like, I was one of these guys.

I was in the front row for Ted Nugent.

I was that into it.

We didn't know he was an.

Okay, okay.

We didn't know that he was a complete racist jackass.

We thought he was the greatest guit ever come down the pike.

And Ted Nugent did do hammer on solos.

One hand.

I'll be at one handed.

But he was doing a hammer on solo well before we saw Eddie Van Halen come out with that.

Yeah, but.

Oh, I sold that record in a hot minute.

Ted Nugent and, you know, got a germs record.

Yeah, well, yeah, you know, people are people.

And as we realize people's politics or worldviews or whatever, it doesn't change the impact their music has had on us.

It absolutely changes it.

Okay.

Music is so personal.

It's such an extension of the personality.

A lot of the times what we're consuming is the musician's image or our fantasy about their life, not just the recording that they made.

Yeah.

And this is why I couldn't listen to no Michael Jackson records anymore, even though he was really big to me in the 1980s.

And I ain't listening to no R. Kelly or Kanye west either.

I'm sorry, folks, I'm not into those guys.

Ain't listening to no Gary Glitter records.

Okay, fair enough.

The music is intensely personal.

And you cannot separate the art from the artist.

Nor should you, because a lot of what you're consuming is the artist, Period.

That's what people pay for, is proximity to the guy.

Okay.

You can't even sell a record anymore.

Believe me, I've tried.

Yeah, well, you know, and I don't know.

I might, to a degree.

I agree with you, but also disagree with you for a little bit because I think initially, yes, like, the art is the artist, but that art does become personal to the person at some point.

Yes, it takes on a life of its own once the listener gets hold of it.

For sure.

I'm not gonna go out and buy music from these people once I figure out who they are, but the music I already have, and some of those songs are just really personal to me and have sort of existed beyond what the artist is.

For example, there's a Light that Never Goes out by.

By Smiths.

Right.

Oh, here's a good example.

Thank you.

That's an excellent example of an artist who we really.

We don't like that guy anymore.

No, like, at all.

But that song, to me, has taken on so much more definition and life beyond that artist Smith's record slapped.

And I think that we have Johnny Mar to thank for that.

Right.

I think those were good records in spite of the big twat.

Yeah.

I think it's also really cool that they never got back together with that guy in Spite of the large amounts of money.

I hope they don't.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't think they will.

I don't think they will.

All right.

There's also levels to things.

Like for all of his foibles, I don't think Morrissey was raping little kids.

I agree with you.

No one's ever accused him of that.

Yeah, he's a giant racist twat.

Yes, he is.

Is he the Ted Nugent of new wave?

I don't know.

I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but yeah, I got you.

Okay, back on focus and we're deep.

Into the woods here.

Anyway, there's this thing that happened in Oregon though, that I wanted to tell you about, since you're talking about community building.

Yes, it was.

There were these older guys and this small group of people who were a few years older than me and who were.

They could have just done shows in bars and that would have been okay.

But they were determined to keep putting on all ages shows one way or another by either doing them in clubs that were non bars or doing them in bars but putting away the booze for an all ages event.

And that was a novel solution that I think at the time you could only see in Oregon where they would like literally throw a blanket over the booze and bring kids into the bar and then chase them all out at 9 o' clock so that the adults could come in and resume drinking.

But anyway, this group of guys, and there's some very specific guys here I'm talking about, one of them is named John Shirley and he's known from literature as the father of cyberpunk.

John Shirley was the author of the Crow and he was in a band called Sado Nation in Portland.

He was just a weird guy from Salem.

And this other guy, Fred Cole, who was later in Dead Moon, but at the time was in a band called King BE and later the Rats and had this guitar store called Captain Wiz Eagles and this other guy, Mark Stan, who was, well, I'm not sure what he was other than a malcontent, but those three guys and some others got together and made sure that there was this series of gigs that went on that created a scene and eventually had put together a club that was stable and ran for about a year as a cooperative sort of community based venture with an actual 501C3 and a board of directors, this kind of apparatus behind it.

This was a hugely successful cultural operation at getting a whole bunch of kids my age engaged in starting bands, doing gigs, running fanzines, all that kind of action.

And resulted in sort of an enduring scene in Portland that helped sustain the Seattle groups and a lot of other folks.

I'm real proud of having been part of it and was.

They asked me to be.

I was for a while a member of the board of directors of that outfit at age 18, which is kind of nuts.

Was I in over my head?

Not really.

I was just fully engaged.

And it was really good training for what I ended up doing.

But yeah, it fell apart.

It got replaced by a largely bar scene with occasional all ages things.

But Portland ended up blossoming and here today there's so much happening musically in Portland and Eugene and.

Yeah, well, it's the kind of thing that sets you on a good path.

And it was.

I'm really grateful to these elders.

Mark Stenn is still alive and so is John Shirley.

Fred Cole has passed, but his wife Tootie was in there with us the whole time.

Kathleen Cole, she's still around playing festivals this summer, so.

Oh, wow.

That affected my outlook and informed what I ended up doing.

One of the projects was setting up a chain of technology access centers and sort of self training centers for musicians and other music professionals throughout Louisiana.

It was a project called Music Office Co Op.

And so we would set up these well equipped offices with studios attached to in seven different cities.

And in most of these places also offered band rehearsal on a monthly basis or a private studio room on a monthly basis, which paid the bills for this project, made itself sustainable.

And that was a really terrific project to do.

We used somebody else's money.

We did it under the banner of a nonprofit foundation.

And we were able to, over the course of its seven or eight year run, touch hundreds, maybe thousands of Louisiana musicians and help them earn a little more money at what they were doing by helping them be more organized, more professional, more prepared and able to deliver and to have more marketable results.

Yeah, well, isn't.

I mean, isn't that the whole punk rock ethos anyway?

Right.

Well, it was absolutely an application of the punk rock ethos, except all of our clients were involved in hip hop, soul, R B, country western, pretty much everything but punk rock.

So that was interesting, you know, but yeah, it's the same ethos.

It's the same kind of chores that we got to do.

Yeah, but it's also community building, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

So.

So even though the community isn't necessarily spiked hair and spiky belts and patches.

Right.

It's still that creator musical music community yes.

And even greater world community and sort of throw in like the tailings of punk rock into it.

So this thing that I was a small part of was associated with Tipitinas.

It was the best scene in New Orleans, where we had a former hotel that had been turned into a mini storage and band rehearsal with apartments attached.

I lived there and the groups that practiced there ranged from the Suplex and I Hate God to George Porter and Ivan Neville.

And you know, it was pretty much everybody on the New Orleans scene.

100 Different bands had rooms there.

You could hear them playing all day night.

It was quite a situation.

Yeah, I bet.

In a smaller way, I've done that with my own money here in Montgomery, although we only have 40 rooms and half of them were taken over by cosmetologists and other businesses.

It's a smaller recording environment, rehearsal scene here in Montgomery, but there's a few bands that rehearse here, including my own, and a whole bunch of people making hip hop and electronic music on a very commercial level.

And that's an honor to support that.

It's not always easy and it's definitely not always smooth, but it's a thing I'm able to do within capitalism, you know?

Yeah, I sold my house in New Orleans.

I bought at a really good time right after a flood and took something that was pretty much worthless and fixed it up.

And my neighborhood had changed.

So I walked out of this New Orleans situation with just enough money to buy a modest commercial building in Montgomery, Alabama, which is a very small market where the prices are very depressed generally.

But it was enough that I could pay cash for this building and live there while trying to get a rental business started that worked nice.

And I'm never going to become a millionaire doing this.

And I have to work seven days a week, but it's not 24 hours.

Okay.

Yeah.

Mostly I screw around with music and I'm able.

It allows me to foster 40 different small businesses, including a number of music producers, these live groups, and a bunch of other people who are just kind of feeding their family and putting shoes on their kids by their activities here.

It's been gratifying to see it work.

I don't think anybody believed it would.

Yeah, you know, like, I mean, we live in a capitalistic society.

Right.

So there are some frameworks that we have to live by living where we live.

But that doesn't mean we have to buy into all the rules of it.

Right.

Like we can.

Right.

We approach that system with compassion, with empathy, and with a sense of community.

Versus how can I screw everybody over to get everything?

Yeah.

I believe, as do many, that housing is a human right.

As a result, I don't work in residential real estate, period.

I don't want to be anybody's home landlord ever.

I don't want that power over another human, human being.

And so by choice, I only deal with commercial.

I help people who are small businesses.

The experience of living in Montgomery means that if you're.

Well, I had a chance to go to the Equal Justice Initiative and learn about the history of Montgomery and how corrections work in this community.

And let me tell you, anybody with a felony is going to have a hard time ranting commercial property ever.

And so I rent to them and basically I offset that by living here and keeping an eye on things so that nobody never gets out of hand.

If somebody's doing wrong, we identify it and walk them out quick.

Yeah, I've allowed my own leftist views to influence how I run this business, you know, for the business better of people who might not be getting a chance from mainstream capitalism, especially mainstream commercial landlords who are corporate shitbags as far as I am concerned.

I, I compete with giant corporations that are billion dollar concerns and are, you know, rotten.

I can outmaneuver and out price and out position them every day of the week.

That's pretty easy.

I do okay.

And my little niche, I'll just never be any threat to them.

Capitalism sucks, kids.

But we're stuck here and you got to learn how to play this dumb game or you're really, really okay.

Just saying, oh, capitalism sucks.

I'm not going to learn business.

I'm not going to deal with money.

Well then you're going to deal with starvation.

Yeah, it bites, bites, bites.

And you've got to be smart and you've got to look out for yourself and not just be trying to pull a scam all the time.

Okay?

I encounter a lot of people who are on the scam.

It don't work, friends.

You get caught up short, okay?

Whether it's big or small, there's nothing honest to it.

And in the long run you will fail.

And I say this too, especially to, you know, the people who are trying to re engineer our society from the right.

They're a bunch of grifters and we see them having a party at the White House right now.

Now, but will not last.

Yeah, no, no.

You got to do things that are honest and well, shoot.

Now I'm.

We're pretty far from punk rock and I'm sounding like some grumpy Old guy who's trying to justify world, you know.

Well, you know, but we're still talking about community.

We're still talking about.

Yeah.

I'm lucky to have built this little community of business people who are at least like minded enough to all work in the same place together.

Yeah.

Make money together without interfering with each other.

And that's kind of beautiful.

I'm digging it.

It allows me the freedom to mostly screw around with music.

Yeah.

Well, I think it's also important that you know you're giving people a second chance.

Right.

First in a lot of cases.

Right.

You know, because a lot of people don't get that people make mistakes, they screw up, they do shitty things.

It's not always this black and white thing of like, okay, this person did this and this is their consequence.

Now we're going to judge them for the rest of their lives.

Who the hell knows everything that went into that decision, right?

Man.

If you live in the south, if you grew up in the South.

I'm sorry to say it, don't get mad, but categorically you got cheated out of a good education.

You didn't get no sex ed.

Let's start right there.

Yeah.

And it's not just Alabama.

This is Louisiana and this is the South.

You got cheated out of an education and now you're being cheated out of an economy that has been said overseas.

So it's not just black, it's everybody.

Yeah, no, we've been.

I apologize.

Can we take a break for a second?

I need to refill my coffee, reset my brain.

I just went into vapor lock, but I want to keep going.

Yeah, no worries.

I'm gonna hit stop.

Okay, Cool.

We are going.

Okay, our story so far.

I was very lucky to be born a white male in Oregon.

There was a show business and technology revolutions underway and I was able to get a good education almost in spite of myself.

I certainly put up a fuss about it.

I did get expelled from Beaverton High School my junior year.

That was exciting for booze.

But I got lucky in career and got involved in what I wanted to in California, which was music technology.

Then I got lucky in real estate in New Orleans.

I was able to walk away with enough to buy a property in a small town in Alabama where I knew nobody.

But it seemed like a chance to make another start.

And then I got lucky running a small business in Montgomery, surviving to this wicked old age.

But I had to reinvent myself along the way a couple of times.

Beautiful.

My scene in California fell apart with the dot com meltdown.

And I went from making about 110 grand a year to making zero grand a year.

And that'll put a change on your head, man.

That's like stepping off a cliff.

And so, you know, I wound up in the south where I knew basically nobody but my mother in law and had to find a new career somehow.

Then after that career, which ran real well for 11 years, but after that, bottomed out in New Orleans, I couldn't get hired in New Orleans anywhere.

It sucked.

And I felt like a broken human being and had to take a chance on myself starting something that I thought would work but everybody else was skeptical of.

And well, I got lucky.

It worked.

I'm still here.

Right.

This is the 10th year of running this place, so I guess I succeeded.

Yeah, I'm not in debt.

How about that?

Nice.

It worked.

I think that personal reinvention thing, it's.

It happens, you know, it's part of the journey.

Right?

Yeah.

Or you.

Or you go down in flames.

Yeah, I mean, I'm on like the 14th reinvention right now.

It's portrayed as a American story.

You stride out into the wilderness with your ex wife nipping at your heels and bills flying in the rear view mirror, but you stride out to the wilderness and reinvent yourself, put on a new suit and get right with Jesus or whatever you have to do.

And.

Well, everybody loves that story.

It's messier than that.

Yeah, well, yeah, and it's.

I think that has become the new, like, sort of definition of the American dream, where the original version is much more solvent.

Right.

And I think the original version is why so many people are so upset Now.

I'll go into a little bit with that.

Okay, let's be clear on what we're talking about as, quote, the American dream, which is a complicated stack of lies.

Was this the single family dwelling with the one job that supports the whole group and, you know, the two cars?

Well, no, that.

That consumerist dream.

No, I think it's even earlier than that.

Right.

I think it's a combination of what you said earlier.

It's going out and making yourself something.

Yeah, right, okay.

Like going out and making yourself something.

Oh, the pioneer.

Yeah, the pioneer American dream.

Right.

And creating this new life for yourself that was better than the old.

Yes, folks.

And this was a big lie, folks, because it ignored whose land this was that we were creating the new life on.

Right.

I'm telling you this.

But yeah, kids listening at home.

Yeah.

But I think that, I think one of our biggest imports is that Dream like that America is still this land of opportunity.

And we're probably going to venture into politics here a little bit, but whenever it's my podcast, we can do what.

We want to do.

I mean, that's, I think that's key to the marketing of America.

Right.

Immigrants.

Right.

And that's why all these people come here is because like they are trying to make something better for themselves.

Yeah.

And you know, can I digress here for just.

Yeah, please, please.

Because America sets up obstacles to everything you try to do.

And I don't mean just at the federal level, I mean particularly at the local state level.

There's just all of these everywhere you go.

Especially if you're trying to make something better for yourself and be an entrepreneur, you're taxed into non existence almost immediately.

I was over in Vietnam and yeah, the Communist party runs the place.

But you know what it is go go capitalism on every level in Vietnam right now, from the street to the towers, there is business, business, business.

And the government wants no part of it.

They're not saying no to nothing.

They're not taxing or licensing.

If you want to set up a restaurant on the sidewalk, you can do it.

And many do.

Okay.

They set up restaurants in front of other restaurants on the sidewalk.

Cooking on the sidewalk.

Don't trip that somebody's dinner they're cooking.

Okay, that's.

And yeah, you want capitalism, you want entrepreneuring, Take a look at what's going on in allegedly communist Vietnam.

Okay.

Where people are just allowed to start business and the government stays completely out of it.

I'm not saying that's great.

Their infrastructure, once you look kind of behind the main streets, there's a lot of problems.

The condition of their legacy infrastructure is.

Anyway, Bo, it was good for me to get a peek at how other folks live.

Right.

Americans take themselves pretty damn seriously and think they've got all the answers problems and they absolutely do not.

There's a much larger world that is paying us a little mind and it's for the best.

Well, I'm going to jump back to the American dream, this exported American dream.

Right.

I believe that some of the biggest conflict between Americans and, and immigrants isn't it's mask between, oh, they're going to take our jobs and oh, they're going to do this and oh, they're going to bring crime.

But what I think the deeper causation of that is, is these people have something we have lost.

You know, I think most Americans have just accepted their role in life.

Like, okay, this is All I can ever be now, whatever it is, this is all I can be.

And then the.

These people from other places are coming in and like, well, how can these other people come in and be successful?

And they're coming here trying to get something that I can't get myself.

I don't think it's really about crime and all that other stuff.

I think it's that lost sense of hope.

Well, I think people are taught to be xenophobic for economic reasons.

Yes.

Okay.

There's a.

There's an ongoing project to create a permanent, exploitable and expendable underclass.

And it's so much easier for these racists if that underclass is brown skinned or yellow skinned or whatever.

Because if we buy into that, then we can't really look at the bigger problem.

Yeah, no, I think there's the fundamental issue behind.

Well, immigration is a labor issue.

Okay.

Immigration is not a cultural issue.

It's not a social issue.

It is a labor issue.

And yeah, they want cheap immigrant labor that they can spray with chemicals and withhold pay from if they.

They feel like it.

So,.

Yeah, you know, there's your American dream.

Come and get it, folks.

Yeah, okay.

Try to get back on some kind of.

Hey, I'm like, Mr. Negativity.

Yeah.

What's your T shirt say?

Have you heard that band?

Or else they're from Birmingham.

No.

So they're.

They're more grind here for me.

I'm trying to figure out what the design.

Oh, it's like rainbow bars.

Okay, good.

I'm down.

Yeah, yeah, they're more grind than, you know, whatever.

Happy Pride Month to all of our listeners.

Yeah, Those who celebrate, definitely.

Yeah.

But they're great dudes.

I. I'd recommend checking them out and reaching out to them.

All right.

Definitely aligned.

How was the gig?

It was.

It was good.

So we ended up on a last minute show Friday.

One of the other bands dropped off, so I was here in town.

And then last night in Birmingham.

Yeah, we played with Boomstick from Nashville.

They're cool dudes.

They're more.

Hell, I'd say they're more like party punk, you know, just want to have a good time and whatever.

But, you know, one or two of their songs lean a little political like they have, you know, one of their newer songs called Throw Rocks at Nazis.

And then we played with a band from Pensacola called Kinder, Gentler.

And they were.

I really dug them.

Just really, really dug them.

And then played with Hans Condor from Nashville again.

And they put on an amazing live.

Show this Seems like big time rock and roll.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And just a lot of energy.

Yeah.

So it's really like, the bands were amazing.

Yeah.

Fun time, you know.

And then there's us who are never scared of speaking our minds.

How's the new bass player?

Oh, she's great.

She definitely has more of a following than the rest of us do.

After every show, people are like, hey, can we get our pictures?

Well, so last night, you know, I was over at our merch table or whatever and people were a couple, four or five kids came up to like, hey, where's your bass player?

And she had gone out of the room.

I said, oh yeah, she's over there.

Like, I said, do you think we can get her picture taken with her?

And.

And I was like, yeah, sure.

And then joke, man.

I was like, what?

You don't want your picture taken with me?

And they're like, she sort of rocks.

Yeah, go for it.

Like, yeah, take all the pictures you want.

Like, you know, go ask her.

But I'm sure she will be more than happy, you know, none of the rest of us.

People didn't care.

But no, she, she's doing great.

She picked up all the songs really quick.

We're writing new songs.

She's awesome.

And she moved up here from Florida, so she, she was with a couple bands down in, in Florida.

Has done tours.

Like, really gets it and really gets like what we're, what we're trying to do.

And one of the things that we do with our merch that we get criticized on frequently is like, I don't, I don't price any of our merch.

And so the way people pay for it, we ask people to pay either what they can or what they think is fair.

And we don't judge.

We just ask them, you know, don't take advantage of.

So if you want a shirt and you only have $5, like, cool.

But if you want shirt and you have $20, cool.

And people will get criticized on it all the time.

Like, oh, people are going to take advantage.

They're going to lie.

They're whatever, you know, and with me, and we've talked about with a band, it's, you know, if somebody lies like that, that doesn't impact our accountability and that doesn't impact our integrity and that doesn't impact what we are trying to do with the world.

That's on them, you know, and for us, it's, it's.

We feel it's more important for our message to get out there than for the $20 from the shirt for us, you know, and we're not judging anybody else.

Like, you know, this is just decision we've made for our band.

Much like, you know, we only play all ages shows, which limits in Huntsville, especially the shows we get to play.

I didn't know that was your policy.

That's an admirable policy.

Yeah, that's the, the Fugazi approach.

And yes, but you know, we, we, we.

Boy, good for you.

Yeah.

And again, you know, for us it, it's.

We all grew up in a scene with Access.

We all had access.

Johnny's from Boston and Bill's from Memphis and I grew up in the Northern Virginia, D.C. scene.

No, he was from Boston.

Now he starts to make sense.

What part of Boston is Johnny from?

I don't know.

I mean he's lived all over.

Okay.

But I used to live in Boston.

You know, for all of us, we had Access.

Right.

And without those all ages shows, none of us would be here.

Yeah.

You know, and so again for us, I'm not like we're not criticizing anybody else, we all realize whatever.

But for us it's how can we create this bigger community and refresh the community and bring more people and new people into this community without having access to those people and talk to somebody that like, you know, you all really need to play bar shows.

You'll just, you'll have access to like a different crowd, a newer crowd.

And I said to him, I was like, okay, cool.

I said, so most of our fans are under the age of 21.

So if we play a show that's only 21 plus, all these people who like us, all these people who come out to us for whatever reason aren't able to come.

But if we play an all ages show, like everybody can come to it.

So somebody's not going to come to a show because it's all ages.

Like then they're really not the people I want coming to my show anyway, you know, for us.

Yeah.

So that's just how the way we do things.

And we have played some 21 plus shows, but it's very, very rare.

And it's typically when we're doing a favor for somebody, like somebody dropped off, they just need somebody to plug in last minute or something like that.

But I would say the vast majority of our shows, especially if we know about it like way ahead of time, are strictly all ages.

Okay.

I think bilking is something that we, I would be quick to say that I don't do it well.

I don't really enjoy it as a task and it's become challenging for us because it's a clicky scene.

Yeah, yeah.

We sort of just take what gigs are offered us.

Once in a while we'll throw one.

We threw one at a bar here recently and we had a good time.

The bar owner was great about it.

She was.

And the Nowhere Squares couldn't make was heartbreaking.

We, we, at the request of the Nowhere Squares, we'd kind of produce this thing and then they couldn't make it at the last minute.

A good time was had anyway.

Yeah, yeah, they're good folks.

We'll work them again.

Same.

But I wanted to point out that we are at this curious moment here.

Punk rock in many ways was a project to destroy the record industry and also get our hands on the tools of production so we could make our own records.

And punk rock failed at that a lot.

What succeeded at destroying the record industry and democratizing access to tools was the tech business.

And so here we are today where the record industry is this tiny shrunken thing and it cannot sustain us.

It's impossible to sell recorded music or for that matter, video.

And we are left with is selling either proximity in the form of gigs, tickets, or selling merchandise like clothing.

It's a curious predicament.

Us musicians, especially the boomers like myself, were conditioned to a sort of anti capitalism where we didn't want to sully ourselves with the things like shilling for Budweiser or selling T shirts in your size and color.

And it seemed like being tainted with the marketplace was distasteful.

And yet that's all we got left.

Yeah.

All right, so congratulations, punks.

We won, I guess.

Right?

The record industry is kaput.

Except, you know, the stub end of the form that sells us.

Taylor Swift.

And she can't really sell albums either.

Yeah.

I spent a thousand bucks remaking T shirts for this band.

I went on strike from it about five years ago after we got into a beef with some people.

I was like this merchant, you know.

I didn't get into this to be.

To be in the rag trade.

I want to make records.

And so I focused on that for five years.

But now I have relented since.

We're going on tour next month and we need a bunch of T shirts.

So.

Yeah.

Can afford the gasp.

Yeah.

Well, well, driving back last night with Mandy, who is our bass player, she was saying, oh, one of my friends in Florida really wants a hat.

How much?

How much?

Just.

Just take the damn hat and send it to him.

Like if he Wants to give us some money for it.

Awesome.

Like, otherwise, whatever she was saying, this is so much different than her experience.

Other bands she's like, even bands she has been in that she helped pay for the merch, they're still like, nope, you know, shirts are 15, you got to pay 15.

You can't just have one.

Yeah.

Again, it's more about the message.

We'd rather our name be out there.

But also for, again, for us, it's no judgment on anybody else's, you know, decisions we've made for ourselves.

For us, it's not like it's not a business.

Oh, look, man,.

I know for some people it is like, you know, we're not on tour, we don't have to make gas money.

Maybe if the situation was different, it would be different, but for us it's not.

And I definitely see that as a luxury that we have that many bands don't.

Because we're not worried about making it to the next town.

We're not worried about paying rent.

We're not worried about any of that with the band paying the bills.

I think, Bo, I think your band is a psyop, just like my band.

Okay.

We're not trying to make it in show business.

That would be ridiculous.

Right.

Okay.

We're trying to make it in the messaging business.

Yes.

We're trying to get our messages across.

It's a psyop.

It's an art project.

I don't know why.

It's a.

It's a guaranteed money loser that we're doing for other reasons.

Most definitely.

Yes.

And this was never a viable career option until Green Day came along and made people reevaluate some things.

But that also will never happen again.

Yeah.

There will not be another Green Day.

No.

So, nor should there be.

But I think we're at a weird, fucked up moment where the social network are of no help and value whatsoever.

The social networks are keeping our messages from going across.

Every time we post a track or about a gig, we get two likes to hit.

If this is going to work, if these psyops are to succeed, it's going to be person to person.

Yeah.

You know, in the parking lot at an all ages show in the store.

Oh, I saw you last night.

It's going to be, you know, that's the only way this is to going.

Going to work.

Right.

It's the only way it's going to have the effect that we hope for.

Right.

I wish we were better organized.

I wish we were smarter.

Better organized and better funded.

Don't you?

Oh, definitely.

But that's another reason why we pretty much only play all ages shows is that for us, we feel like it's the kids that need to hear the message.

Right.

The kids that need to hear, hey, you're not alone.

Hey, you do have support.

Hey, there are people that.

That value you, regardless of how you identify, of who you are, of who your true authentic self is.

Like, there is value in that.

And we love you.

Yes.

And we want you here and we're glad that you're here.

Right.

I mean, everybody needs to hear that.

I wish I could say that as eloquently as you, Bob.

Well, thank you.

Okay.

Well done.

Yes.

Please, please come to our gigs and say that.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I love playing with y'.

All.

Like, anytime you all have an open slot, please.

All right.

Yeah.

That's an important message that I don't.

Think.

People hear nearly enough.

And.

And that's our psyop, right?

Like, look, you're loved, you're valued, you belong.

Show up and you're safe at our show.

That's it.

And you know, people get tripped out sometimes because, like, we see you playing and you're like, aggressive and you're over and you're loud and you're whatever, like.

But you're singing about, like, love and you're singing about compassion and empathy.

Because I get it.

Like, I mean, I'm still angry and pissed off, but I'm pissed off because these things aren't happening and they need to be.

Like, I can be angry with my love.

I can be angry with my acceptance.

I can be aggressive with it.

You know, if people can be aggressive with their anger and aggressive with their hatred, why can't I be as equally aggressive with my love and acceptance?

Well, yeah.

Yeah.

The answer is, well, heteronormative expectations.

I think the short answer that is why you can't.

But I'm not sure I feel safe at my own gigs.

In fact, I'm positive I don't.

Okay.

I'm a guy who feels a ton of anxiety about all this stuff, which is pretty curious for someone who's a lifelong performer.

Yeah.

But I never feel as exposed as I am when I'm around the gig.

Up on stage.

I'm a little better.

I got something in my hand I can defend myself with, but I'm usually empty handed, walking around.

Yeah, I don't feel safe, Bo.

Yeah.

I can't make any promises of safety to anybody.

Okay.

I. I'll defend your ass if there's trouble.

I'LL stand up for you.

I will stand between it.

But yeah, that's an interesting mindset.

You're more confident, you're more comfortable than I am.

Yeah.

It's a stressful situation for me.

Yeah.

And we were actually, you know, one of the shows past couple nights, we were having this conversation or you know, I said, you know, because we all have histories.

Right.

You know, Johnny served some time and was approached by a gang while in prison to join.

And he's like, well, let me think about and get back to you.

And his response was getting a giant xed out swastika tattooed on his chest.

He's like, here's my response.

Oh, you know Bill the anti swastika.

Right.

Okay.

He got an anti fascist tattoo on his chest as a response to the gang offer.

Correct.

Thank you.

That's a stand up thing to do.

Right.

I just wanted to be clear.

I understood that.

Yeah.

Bill has his history.

I've fought Nazis and fascists and skinheads, like physically fought them.

We were talking like, I think we might be the most unassuming tough guy band in our area because none of us really go out and we aren't like, hey, look, we do, but our words aren't just our words.

Like there's action to back up everything we say.

Yeah.

Who think they're tough guys or want to be tough guys.

They're not.

Right.

You know, and going, you know, going to what you said, like, yeah.

I can't guarantee that somebody, some idiots aren't going to walk into a show and start causing drama or start causing violence.

I can't guarantee that.

But what I can guarantee is that you're not going to face that by yourself.

Oh, yeah.

You know, that we will put ourselves in front of you so you don't have to face that by yourself.

Mr. Todd Crazy.

He don't give a anymore.

Right.

Yeah.

I, I haven't seen it all, but I've seen enough.

Yeah.

I'm not, I will not play this any longer.

Right.

Yeah.

You know, and I think there's so much easily accessible daily hatred and intolerance in our world that for us it's that hope, love and compassion piece.

Like we need to make that as easily as accessible.

Yeah.

You know, for me, who writes most of the lyrics, like, that's what punk rock and the punk rock community has taught me.

When I had nowhere else to go when I was a teenager, you know, the punk and arc were seeing open arms.

Come as you are.

We're just glad you're here and that's not saying that there weren't some really messed up things happening or happen, but still, it was like, come as you are, we're glad you're here.

And you have a community and you have a family within this scene.

Yeah.

Can I ask how old you are?

47.

Thank you.

Okay.

What was your epiphany Band?

I've had a couple.

The first song I ever heard that made me realize there was more to music than just entertainment was the Public Enemy Anthrax crossover Bring the Noise.

When I heard that song, I was.

It was like somebody kicked me in the brain and it was like, holy hell.

Like, I've listened to music before this and I've liked it or I didn't like it.

This is the first song I ever heard that made me feel something in my soul.

Wow.

Through that, then I found punk.

And so I think the first punk album I ever bought was Group Sex by Circle Jerks.

Good choice.

And then from there it was.

This would have been.

This would have been out of the oldies bin at that point, though.

That was not a new release.

No, no.

And, you know, and then from there it was a.

Did you catch Anthrax on tour in those days?

Not in those days, but I've caught them many times since.

Yeah.

Scott.

Ian's quite a guy.

Yeah.

And so is Charlie.

Okay, Charlie Benante, the drummer, but from Circle Jerks, it was a very quick jump to Seven Seconds.

And from Seven Seconds, it was a very quick jump to early Discord records, like Minor Threats, State of Alert, Government Issue, that stuff, you know.

And so that was my foundational, you know, whatever.

And then getting into the DC punk and hardcore scene.

And so the first show I ever went to where I felt a connection.

So in D.C. there's a park and it's called Fort Reno.

And Fort Reno put on free concerts a couple times a week every summer.

And you could go and see a classical orchestra play.

You could go and see jazz play, whatever.

Minor Threat.

And not Minor Threat, the Fugazi would usually play once a year, you know, this massive free show there.

But when I was maybe 16, there was a hardcore show there.

And up until that point in time, like, I listened, and I still listen to everything.

Like, I was listening to metal, I was listening to industrial, goth, punk, hardcore, you know, everything under that greater umbrella, alternative and grunge and, you know, everything under that greater umbrella.

And There were three D.C. bands playing.

There's a band called Darkest Hour, and they opened.

It was a band called Battery, and then a band called Damnation Ad and Darkest Hour played and I was like, cool, I like them.

I'm into it.

Dig it.

And then Battery played and again, something in my soul started to move.

And they ended their set with We're Gonna Fight by seven Seconds, which, you.

Know,.

I can never say enough positive things about 7 seconds and what their music has done for me.

And then Darkest Hour played and they play this song called and Darkest Hours More.

Definitely has more metal influences in their hardcore.

Probably one of, like, the early precursors, to quote unquote, metalcore.

They had this song called no, no More Dreams of Happy Endings.

And, like, by the end of that song, I was like, this is what I am.

Like, I finally, like, found my home, you know.

So from then on, I was like, you know, a hardcore kid, you know, cut off camo shorts, band T shirt, still, you know, 30 years later is still my go to thing.

And, you know, if you like aggressive music, it sticks with you for life.

Yeah, it really does.

From then I started finding more, like, political stuff.

I went to see who was playing.

I think A Veil was playing in D.C. but a band called Boy Sets Fire was opening for them.

A Boy Sets Fire.

First time I'd seen him.

First time I heard them.

Their singer, Natasha was so emotional and open and vulnerable with their stage presence and performance.

And that was sort of like the next kick to me from, like, okay, like, I love this.

I love this.

But now they're like, like, I really like this.

Yeah.

So anyways, I hope that answered.

Yes.

Natasha now has a band called the Iron Roses.

So if you haven't heard the Iron Roses or Voices Fire, I recommend both of them.

Sounds good.

Yeah.

So what's next?

I mean, we've been talking a while, so I want to be respectful of your time.

Okay, let's start wrapping this up.

What gives you hope?

What gives me hope?

Oh, well, my kids and my children are adults now and into their lives and into their careers.

And not only was that the best project of my entire life, but they give me new hope on a daily basis.

And, yeah, they're proper leftists like their father.

Nice.

All right.

But they radicalized me.

Yeah, kids have a way of doing that.

That is the truth.

I thought.

I thought I was.

Well, I guess I was a liberal.

They made me a leftist.

Also.

I'm involved in gardening, and gardening is a pursuit that where you get to experience daily the renewal of life and the fact that life exists beyond just the human realm.

So that, I guess, keeps me grounded.

Cool.

Okay.

What are you listening to what am I listening to?

I'm listening to you, Beau.

You're talking to me on my headphones.

Hold on, let me.

Let me go get some visual aid so I don't.

Please, please, just so I don't misannounce this.

It's all on the turntable.

Nice.

Hold on.

Yep.

Yeah, we're here.

I'm walking over here right now scooping up records.

Now I think this will prove indicative of what I'm into.

Okay.

And also where I am in life.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Now when you're at my stage of life, your friends start dropping by the wayside.

Yes.

And this is a story that just keeps repeating.

Your friends who took care of themselves and your friends who didn't take so much care.

And they start dropping by the wayside.

And we keep telling this story until there's no one left to tell this story.

That's where I am right now.

But anyhow.

Yesterday I got a record from the Breaks.

Robert Walter, Eddie Robertson, Stanton Moore.

This is New Orleans funk Boogaloo instrumental.

This is the bomb.

If you like stuff like the Meters.

Stanton Moore is an entrepreneur and drummer who is a co owner of Tipitinas and is also very busy playing drums.

So not too bad.

My friend Malcolm in Portland just died.

He was the co founder of Fatal Erection Records along with Poison Ideas, Pig Champion.

And so I've been listening to some Fatal Erection releases like the Imperialist Pigs, Darby Crash Rides Again.

These are other Poison Ideas things.

Poison Idea record collectors are potential.

That's a great album.

The reissue of the Pick your King ep.

I have two copies of this on the original issue on Clear Vinyl.

Friends.

Oh wow.

That you bought?

I bought for you know, $2 back in the day and is now in a safe deposit box somewhere along with my Negative Approach single and a couple of other records.

Aretha Franklin, Lady Soul, Super Soul, Richard Groove Holmes.

Okay.

I think the Beastie Boys sampled this guy.

Yeah, it's a great organ based record.

Claudine Lange died recently.

She was a French pop in who murdered her boyfriend and got away with it.

All right?

And this was huge News in the 1970s.

Andy Williams.

And she murdered her skier boyfriend whose name was Spider Savage.

Spider Savage, it's a name like Evel Knievel.

You know, you just remember that she murdered that guy and got away with it.

And now she's gone too.

But her records are something else.

She was kind of like the French Austri Gilberto.

She's of the breathy pop Chantoo sort of.

Oh, Herbie Mann.

Standing ovation at Newport.

Oh, yes, friend.

If you like good jazz funk.

There's another guy who got sampled by the Beastie Boys and Sublime and many others.

That's the kind of.

I listen to a lot of.

There's also this Poison idea last Live in France that I thought was in that stack.

But anyway.

Cool.

We do play a lot of PI around here.

We're not just on their label.

Lifetime fans.

Yeah.

God.

Great band.

Oh, my God.

On the road with the Hard Ons, playing festivals in Europe.

Okay, this is something I've talked to you about a couple times, but I have a close friend in Seattle, and you all know a lot of the same people.

I just can't believe you don't know each other, but his name's Andy Caro, and he was in an early Seattle band called March of Crimes.

I mean, he toured with Poison Idea.

He toured with.

With the.

I can't think of their names.

The.

I don't know.

I can't think of their names.

Regardless, like, y' all ran in very similar circles.

And it was a small scene back in those days and a lot of connection between Portland, seattle.

I got tf out of the northwest by 1980.

Yeah.

6.

1987.

I was just like.

Had to leave.

It was one of these classic things.

My dad, Big Spender, took me to the hot dog stand for lunch.

He's like, son, I don't know what you want to do, but we can both see nothing is happening in Seattle, Washington.

I was like, oh, yeah, dad, Seattle's dead.

There's no music scene whatsoever here in Seattle.

And not much of a tech scene either.

Yeah, okay.

Now, had I stuck around Seattle another year or two, we probably would have been signed, strung out, dropped, you know, all these things that could have happened.

Instead, I packed it up and went to San Francisco and got in the tech business down there, which, you know, it was a much larger market.

Impossible to distinguish oneself in that.

And down there, well, there was a million different scenes happening.

Okay.

We were not involved in the grunge scene in those days.

What was happening was Gilman street was right down the road from where I worked.

But they didn't have booze, okay?

So I was in the, like, lounge corps.

I played in lounge bands that were playing like Billie Holiday and Patsy Klein and Brenda Lee and Peggy Lee and other kind of know, torch music, lounge core.

Gotcha.

That's what we thought was going to happen next.

Cool.

Okay, next question.

All right.

Similar to the first or the last one, but a little different.

What do you think people should be listening to what?

I think people should be listening to Abusements.

I think they'd learn a lot if they listen to my band and yours.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

We can stop right there.

I wouldn't be doing this if I thought they should ignore it.

I think a lot of people should listen to both of our bands right now.

And you will thank us for it later.

Well, I'm thanking you for that now.

Thank you.

Okay, cool.

Last thing.

And I want to apologize.

When I first introduced you, I introduced it as the Abusements is not.

There's no the.

Oh, but that's.

That's just conversational.

I know, but that's.

Yeah.

No, we fight that battle every time we make a poster with somebody else and we have to ask them to take the off of it, but it's not to worry.

And that's how people refer to groups.

Okay.

Yeah.

Ramones always appears on the album cover as Ramones, but it's the Ramones.

Right, Cool.

So speaking of abusements, where can people find your music?

Abusements.com is a URL that we own.

And that's, you know, we don't have an EPK.

We've got a website that's charmingly hand coded HTML.

I did it myself, Mom.

Come see us.

Abusements.com or if you want to buy something, it's abusements.bigcartel.com.

Okay.

Big Cartel is the same web store that everybody else uses.

We are abusements.bigcartel.com the T shirts are in stock, the album's in stock.

I'm almost out of CDs and DVDs.

So cool.

Awesome.

Thank you so much, my friend.

Hey, thank you so much, Bo.

It's an honor.

I hope this has been interesting or at least made sense.

Oh, yeah.

Like, one of the unexpected joys of that I get out of doing this as I get to have conversations with people that I don't usually get to have.

It's chaotic at these gigs.

Yeah.

And we're both doing our jobs and going in five different directions.

Right.

Also, you can't hear anything.

No.

You know, and you have so many other people talking to you, so we don't really get the opportunity to sit down and have these, like, deeper conversations and deeper understandings.

So.

Yeah.

So thank you.

I really, really appreciate it.

We get to talk about the deeper stuff.

And I've had this long and really weird life that I'm lucky to still be alive in.

Okay.

And I wanted to work on computer music, and I got To.

All right.

I really thought that stuff was neat and was the coming thing.

And I. I was lucky.

I got to work on computer music with the guys who kind of invented hard disk recording on the Mac and.

Well, shucks, that was exactly what I wanted.

And then I wanted to learn how to do real estate because I figured, well, that's how money's actually made.

Shit.

Careful what you wish for, friends.

Okay?

You might get an education in real estate like I did.

Yeah.

Scar tissue to show for it.

Yeah, it's been.

It's been good all throughout.

I just wanted to around with music mostly.

BO Yeah.

I wanted to make music that was like.

Like I wanted to hear from a radical perspective.

Okay.

I didn't care for groups like the Clash and Rage against the Machine, which seemed like politics from a corporate perspective, especially Rage, who to me are well intentioned yet incoherent.

And I'm that guy who got that Clash London Calling album.

And I listened to four sides of it and said, fuck this sellout shit.

And I took out my buck knife and scratched all four sides of that with the buck knife so it was unplayable.

And then got on my bicycle and rode back to everybody's record company on Canyon Road and Beaverton and insisted that they give me something else because this giant smoking pile of was never going to fly.

I was felt so betrayed by the Clash.

You're hurting my heart a little bit.

I walked out of there with a Patty Smith record and a Lou Reed album and I felt like the world was set correct again.

Screw these London posers.

I'll take New York rock.

You're hurting my heart a little bit.

I was so angry with the clock Clash, man.

We felt.

And I was late to the Hate Clash party, okay.

Because everybody else had given up by the time that Giving Him Enough Rope came along.

But I thought that album had merit.

That sounded like a rock record to me, where the first record had some sonic shortcomings but was still, you know, profoundly awesome.

Yeah.

So I actually have.

I'm a huge Clash fan.

Still am.

Like, huge.

I'm a huge fan.

I just jumped off after two records and some EPs.

I got it.

And, you know, and that's okay.

But so I have an original painting by Kevin Seconds of the.

Like his.

His interpretation of the Give Them Enough Give Them Enough Rope album cover.

Yeah.

So anyway, I released an album from my electronic band that was a absolute send up of Give Them Enough Rope and one of these things.

Well, basically we had to bury that band too.

That was another long story and gets shut down.

And you have to pull everything from the Internet.

Yeah.

Because you pissed off the wrong people who control your life.

Fair enough.

Okay.

We're gonna come to a close.

Thank you again.

Thank you, pal.

Thank you, everybody who is listening to this, who has listened.

I really appreciate it.

I have a couple really neat interviews lined up with people, so please continue listening.

Tell your friends about it.

And, you know, as I've said a couple times, with hope, with love and compassion, we will see you or hear you next time, however it goes on these things.