'Adolecence' Is The Must-See TV Show

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This is a Thursday episode.

We don't do a lot of Thursday episodes, but lately we have done a couple because they seem warranted to give a more thorough discussion about the topic.

This week we'll start the first half like always.

It will be no spoilers.

You can listen to it anytime.

And then when you reach the spoiler half, you can come back later or listen on through if you're caught up on what we're talking about.

And this week it's Adolescence, the four episode miniseries on Netflix.

Little intense this week.

If you've seen the show, you know why.

But we did feel like this show deserved its own focus.

With me, today is going to be Donovan.

No, Adam, this Thursday.

Donovan and I will get into things very soon.

If you need time steps to help you navigate what to hear and what not to hear.

We put those in there for you to help you out.

So look for those.

They're usable on any platform these days.

So let me get Donovan in here.

Okay, it is me, just like I said before, I'm Blaine and it's Donovan with me.

And there is no Adam as he hasn't seen adolescence.

All of our focus and attention on this podcast episode is about the four episode miniseries on Netflix made by Stephen Graham.

You may know him.

He's played the father in the most recent adaptation of Matilda on Netflix.

He was once the young Al Capone on Boardwalk Empire on hbo.

He is an actor on Peaky Blinders.

I have not seen that show, but I know it's very popular and people love it.

You may know him from those.

But he has put this together.

It's.

I get the sense that I'm speculating.

I get the sense it's kind of his.

His baby, his labor of love.

I thought this was really interesting based on where it all goes.

I was reading, like, he.

His initial idea for it was when he wanted there to be like a.

Like, it's a troubled kid who.

Who gets into a bad situation, but it's not.

It's not the fault of the parents or the family, and they're.

They're navigating it, too.

That's really all we're probably going to focus on.

Donovan.

Sometimes I bring shows to you guys here that you haven't seen or we talk, maybe general things.

Any television that's caught your attention.

Does rewatching 30 Rock while I eat supper count?

Is that what you've been doing?

Yeah.

It's a classic, right?

It is a classic.

Like, where does it rank for you among Arrested Development, King of the Hill, and perhaps some others that you have high esteem for?

Probably between, like, those two.

It's.

It's number three.

It's not one or two, because it didn't.

It wasn't strong the whole way through in a way that the first three seasons of Arrested Development were.

But it is also.

It's just like.

It's so.

It's got just such, like, its own goofy brand of humor.

Like, you can't help but not be like.

Like, amused by it.

Does It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia go in that range as well?

Is that.

I know.

That's almost like.

That's almost like another type of.

I don't know.

It is fantastic.

Like, those shows are doing one thing, and then you've got over Sonny here, right?

Like, with the episode that Charlie's trying to, like, pass the inspection in the bar, and Frank keeps flushing his clothes down the toilet, and he's like, I'm painting a shirt, Charlie.

Like, that's a completely other realm of joke.

It is absurd in the.

It's so good in the dumbest kind of way.

It has, like.

It has a different.

There's like a wordplay an absurdity level to 30 rock that is like a conversational absurdity, but also a worldly absurdity that, like, Sunny both does and doesn't have.

Where it's not that it's not visually or visually funny.

It's not that it's not verbally clever.

It's not the same thing.

And the Absurdity is somehow kind of more grounded in its own weird way.

Except also it's not grounded at all.

Yeah, it's good we get a chance to open the floor of some of our favorite comedies because we're about to get into the show adolescence.

Before we reach spoilers, though, I would.

I was thinking about the audience.

If anyone hasn't seen this or it didn't get a lot of focus, but the focus it got from critics was they were floored by how great it was.

That was the sense I got.

As was I.

After watching all of it.

The audience, I think is.

Is going to be.

It just feels like a must watch for parents and it feels like a good watch for anyone who enjoys well made television and who also likes an occasional piece of work to.

To have an intensity to it and to ask profoundly deep and sad questions.

Mm.

Netflix's Can Numbers Can Be Believed.

Damn near all of you have already.

Watched this is it in one of the rankings where they give you the.

Apparently they're saying it's been.

It's a.

It's been a big.

It's been streamed more than Stranger Things like the season one, I think.

Yeah.

I was.

Thanks to the editors of the Guardian who let me look all this stuff up quickly.

That's intense.

That's a big show for them.

Also, if you want to know, it is a British drama.

Four episodes only.

Most of those run right around the 52 hour mark.

That's about all you really want to know going in.

Yeah, I'd say so.

I think that most people.

And you mentioned this the last Thursday episode we did that most people going in knows that it is.

Each episode is one shot with no edits for the scenes.

Yes.

I think while we're still in.

I think this is spoiler free for me to say, but you know, I kind of questioned my first time anytime I see that is, you know.

You know, if you have something really cool and technical like that, it's like, okay, is it necessary or is it just like a sort of like weird flex, right.

Like where the guy's just like, like doing something like masochistic just to show that they.

They can.

Right.

And I'll say for my.

My summary that not only was I.

I thought that it was useful or as.

As under something that underpins and undergirds the show.

I was fascinated by over the course of four episodes, the, the different ways that a single shot is.

Is used.

It's not.

They're all very different.

Which I thought was really, really interesting.

I agree with that, the one shot technique used for each episode is not bombast.

I think it kind of fits this story and there is a little ambiguity as to how it fits the story.

So you can interpret that.

I think with.

We might get into some of those ideas after the spoiler align today.

What I liked about it was I think it's kind of like what you just said, Blaine, where there are honestly at points in these.

I mean, obviously you're like, oh, this is single shot.

This is.

This is so technically impressive.

But there are honestly moments where it's serving the show so well that you kind of like, oh, right, it is a single shot.

That's right.

It doesn't bring attention to itself, which is seems crazy to say because it's a really, you know, when it's a really flashy technique.

Right.

If you were.

Or it can be, you know, even how Alfred Hitchcock couldn't really get it right.

But here, you know it, there's some great moments where it's like, yeah, this is a single shot, isn't it?

Holy smokes.

I wasn't even thinking about that.

Or some whales.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yep.

We're dancing a little, so we might as well get into spoilers.

What we'll do is we'll take a quick little break.

30 seconds.

If you've seen all episodes of Adolescence, you will not be surprised in spoiler.

Now, if you're not averse to spoilers, then listen on.

But just a heads up, I'd watch.

If I may advise you, dear, dear listener, I'm usually like, I don't really care that much about spoilers.

I would advise you, it's not spoilers necessarily.

It's like, don't go in with what we thought about it.

You watch it for yourself and then.

And then come and listen to whatever we have to say.

But watch it for yourself.

Less spoilers, more impact.

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

All right, I'll see you in 30 seconds.

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So we did begin a short discussion about adolescence on Netflix a few weeks ago, probably about two weeks ago.

And a standalone episode of our podcast that's a rare Thursday release.

Nothing special.

It's just an extra episode for us.

Donovan and I only discussed the first episode as we were gauging the critical hype here.

We're gonna pick up with episode two and go all the way until the end of the four part series.

So if you want to save this section until you've seen the whole batch, that's much advised.

So Donovan, we're going to pick up a little with the second episode.

Yeah.

These are all one shot.

And this episode is all in a school.

Yep.

And it looked terrifying.

Bone shaking.

Frightening.

For me as a teacher and certainly for me looking back as a kid, it's so.

It's so good because it completely undergirds when the detective inspector.

I think it's detective inspection.

Detective sergeant.

The two police officers, like, they're.

They're sitting there just like, I hate this place.

Yeah.

I hate what it reminds me of.

And you can see, like they do such a good job of like it's kids not playing.

Paying attention.

It's like, you know, it's boring classes.

It's, you know, it's.

It's all.

It's like a pressure cooker for, you know, teachers who aren't qualified to teach.

In this case with the history teacher.

Right.

Like he just kind of walks around and doesn't.

It's the kind of thing you're like, I'm so GLAD I'm not 17 anymore.

Absolutely.

It drove that home.

The rampant disrespect, the lack of kindness you saw from many people here.

I know.

It happens.

I'm lucky that I don't work in an environment like that.

I don't know how you could.

I don't know how I could.

Y'all that are teachers and go to school every day.

I don't know how y'all do it.

Well.

And I.

Mine's much easier than that display.

Yeah.

I just.

And I love.

So this is something I learned today too.

I'm gonna look up his name.

The guy who plays Bascom Detective's bester at Bascombe.

Ashley Walters.

Yes.

He was planning to quit acting and go into directing.

He wasn't gonna.

And they talked him back into it for this.

He's central to this episode.

Yeah.

As the.

What a great.

I.

I think works so well.

And I kind of tried to allude to it last week.

And I don't.

I don't know.

I don't have a good way to say it, but we.

We have so little time with this character.

In fact, this is the last time we're gonna see this character for this whole series.

Huh.

This is it.

The show.

And the plot just does such a good job of.

Instead of him, like, say, like, here's who I am and here's how I feel by the.

The environment that he's encountering by the.

And the way that he reacts to the environment of the school.

And.

And, like, memories and fears and things like that bubble up.

It.

It does such a good job of completely naturally giving you a snapshot of here's who this guy is just in a conversation he's having with his partner.

Yeah.

And it doesn't feel forced, and it feels like.

I thought this show did a really.

For being so short, it did such a good job of letting these things arise out of the situation.

What struck you about him?

That's probably not a direction I would have taken this conversation for.

I think I'm looking more eagle Bird's eye view.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was part of it.

Probably because he's really our point of view character.

The camera really pretty much sticks with him.

Yeah.

Which I think is one of those things where it kind of undergirds and, like, reinforces, like, okay, we're identifying with him, but just.

Honestly, I think a lot of it was like, it's a good.

It's a good episode.

It's an exciting episode.

There is even a little bit of, like, you know, because they're still trying to find out, like, hey, where's the murder weapon?

You know, all this kind of stuff.

Walter's acting is like a guy with this doll swirling him like, he's a good cop, He's a good detective.

He's.

It's.

Well, honestly, it kind of feels like.

And this is kudos to the writers and actors that he's a real person bringing the entirety of his life circumstances to this moment.

And I thought that was pretty astounding.

And.

And I think it's what.

You know, it's.

It's one of those things where especially the kind of, like, you know, you have the Tell don't show.

And it's so easy to see when.

When Tell don't show is done badly.

But here we really had to like a little Tell a lot of show, and it all feels very organic.

He does serve quite well as the outsider, which is funny because.

A strange statement to make because everyone's been to school.

And even if you've never been in a British school, school is school.

For the most part.

He's an outsider because we've never been in a school like this.

Those of us who have graduated, it's changed.

It's a different place.

And that's one of the motifs of the series.

Life is different.

Smartphones and the Internet has changed how we live and has changed kids from what we know.

You know, he.

He says, as his son is.

Is helping him decipher the emoji hieroglyphics.

You know, he says, red pills.

And I thought this was great, because the detective is like.

Like the Matrix.

And it's very clear.

His son.

So he's thinking the Matrix.

It's very clear his son has no idea what the Matrix is.

Right.

They're just absolutely talking past each other on this, you know.

Yeah.

They do not get the references, or at least the sign doesn't get the references of where that comes from.

Yeah.

But it is a predominant way of speaking amongst his age.

Yeah.

So each episode, looking back, they are divided kind of into chapters, these chunks.

Each chunk, kind of the four major reasons of how we got here.

In a way, chapter one gives you the arrest.

What that looks like, there's no mystery.

They break that cliche later in the episode.

The suspense goes out pretty quickly.

Which I thought was an astoundingly bold choice.

Yeah, it was.

Until.

And it worked.

Yes, until you see the rest of the chapters, you can say.

Yes, exactly.

Chapter two is how school affects these young people and what it may look like in some schools.

Chapter three, you get this huge reveal that Jamie's a monster.

And we get the thesis of what I think of this is the thesis of the series.

And, you know, this is a certain realm of the Internet has to be part of the blame.

Yeah.

And then.

Absolutely.

Go ahead and mention chapter four here.

It's.

That cannot blame parents who are doing a fairly decent job.

It's going to happen to anyone.

And it's unfair to try to point a finger at one particular thing.

There's no silver bullet.

It's.

Yeah, it's.

I mean, it is.

I don't want to be cliched and be like, well, it's society that did it.

But it's.

I think it kind of, at the end, at least, like, hints at, like, hey, these parents, which I thought was awesome.

Right.

Like, they weren't abusive, they loved him, they did the best they could.

Worst thing they did was they gave him a computer and let him Follow his own interests.

They had no idea.

Right.

What they were doing.

What are they supposed to do?

Yeah, Hang on to that.

Kid's gotta have a computer.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, hang on to that.

I don't have a lot to say about episode two.

I see I found it engaging and I see I did too, how necessary it was.

I'm not even calling it a weak episode at all.

I just think episode three and four are the centerpieces.

They are.

You have to see these.

I was astounded, looking back at it, at how different each episode is from each other.

That's right.

Like one is very different from two, which is very different from three, which I think is a really bold choice.

But.

Yeah, like one sets the situation.

Two, we were kind of like, the heat's turned on.

Right.

We see that the stew is starting to boil.

And then three, for me was the standout one standout episode.

This is the Emmy winner, if you want.

And then four did such a good job of not being anticlimactic but not being at the same level of intensity that three was in a way that I think really underscored the emotion of it.

To me.

I thought they were both really, really good.

And it brought you especially by the last episode.

I think I was impressed by how there's not really a lot of stuff wasted in this show.

Absolutely.

A lot of it comes home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Three.

Three was astounding.

Can't believe this kid's this Literally his first job.

Right.

He's never acted before.

Owen Cooper.

Wow.

Geez.

Yeah.

But he third episode is.

Is.

It's a two person episode.

There's two actors.

It's almost a three, a two man play.

And it felt very much like that.

Yeah.

So much so between Jamie and detention and his psychologist who has been sent to give her opinion on how he is and perhaps even what got him to murder Katie, the girl that he murdered.

It's first episode film for the series.

So like you said, makes it the first time Owen Cooper had ever been on a set at all.

Incredible.

It's.

And it'll jar you.

But watching this episode and not progressing the final one, I noted that this was the climax in a way that four or five acts of a play had.

You know, how Breaking Bad kind of did the.

I guess for the third season, I think it was kind of like this is probably stretching it too much, but like everything is locked into place, everything is determined now.

And now it's all just fallout.

This is the big why done it episode.

And everything of Everything after this, it just feels like fallout.

Yeah.

I would say that there's a subtle shift.

I mean, each chapter is not subtly shifted, like you mentioned.

It can surprise you as to what they do differently with each set.

There's a subtle shift within the episode, and I think that there are some misconstrued takes on it, though.

It's open for interpretation.

Just because something's open for interpretation doesn't mean there can be wrong analysis.

Sure.

For me, the shift is that the show lets us know that it's moved from examining youth kind of getting away from us to where they go.

And in the case of adolescents, it's the manosphere for boys.

I wouldn't be surprised if Stephen Graham.

Sad.

He wanted to do a very specific takedown of that subculture that ruins young boys if they could get into it and unable to get out.

Yeah.

And I think this is the episode, like you said, we kind of get a look under the hood.

And this is where I applaud Owen Cooper's acting so much because it is.

It is unsettling.

It was unsettling to me to watch, especially the scenes where he has a fit of rage.

Yeah.

And he's part of him.

You can see his little boy having a tantrum.

Yeah.

And part of him is.

You can see, like, he's.

He's.

And the therapist or the psychologist, you know, she does her job.

She doesn't give him anything.

But the way that he's like, I can loom over you.

I can.

I can get too close to you.

Like, I'm.

I'm a man and you're a woman, and I.

That means that I can make you afraid.

Yes.

And that.

That mix of little boy tantrum and sophisticated evil, you know, it's chilling.

And you think in parts, what have these parents done to cause him to end up like this?

Which is exactly what you should think here, because it sets up episode four.

Yeah.

Well, you're wondering, right.

Because another one of the things that.

And it's done very well.

But the psychologist is asking, what do you.

You know, what is masculinity?

Basically?

Like, what does it mean to be a man?

What does it mean to be masculine?

And, you know, if your thought doesn't go to.

You learn about that from your dad.

You know, it probably should.

Right.

But as we go on, we're learning more about where he learned about masculinity from.

And it's not in a big way.

It's not from his dad.

No.

At the start of the episode, you notice quickly Jamie's either changed by his environment, he's showing more of himself, or something else is a.

Is the matter.

He's more talkative.

He's less innocent.

Child crying for a parent to help.

And in a minute or two of his chatter with the psychologist Briony, he gets really spiteful pretty quickly.

I'd seen some reviews and recaps that talked about how.

Oh, thank goodness.

My.

You know, my first response was, oh, thank goodness he's more talkative.

They have a rapport, but I sense that rage lurking right there.

And those opening couple of minutes together.

He reads to me as he's probing for weakness.

Yeah.

And, you know, he probably does this with many adults, but I think it is significant that the psychologist is a woman and a woman in somewhat of a position of authority.

Oh, yeah.

You know, and.

And so, like, instantly, he's.

He's looking to see, like, can I.

Kids are good at this.

Sort of, like, kids are very emotional.

They're good at this sort of thing.

You know, it's You.

Sometimes they'll find that one thing that just gets right under your skin.

It's almost innate.

Yeah.

I don't even know in the real world if some of the younger kids know what they're doing.

They just know it works.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what I.

That's.

I guess that's kind of what I mean when I said, like, they're.

They're kind of emo.

You know, it's like.

It's classical psychological reinforcement.

Right.

Like, if I do X, then Y happens.

Yeah.

You know, and that's.

And that's another.

Brought up something so great that I think this show asked, but doesn't really.

And the psychologist asked, but, like, does Jamie.

What is his understanding of what he did?

Mm.

And it's that mix of chillingly, like, sophisticated, like.

Of misogyny and.

And when I say sophisticated, I say.

I mean, it's coming from, like, an adult.

It's not coming from a place of innocence.

I don't mean anything complementary to it.

And.

And the mix of little boy innocence and.

And crying and the way those two are.

Are a terrible, terrible combination because they make him weak and.

And.

And primed for this kind of ideology in.

In a really powerful way, unfortunately.

Yeah.

There's a big clue in the episode still on three here, Jamie briefly mentions that his dad looked away in seeming disappointment at a soccer game of Jamie's.

He didn't yell.

He didn't seem angry.

The dad just looked away.

That's all.

It may have took for someone who is more fragile or sensitive like Jamie would have been at that age.

Absolutely.

I think we've all had experiences like that.

Right.

Where you.

And as adults, we can react poorly and things can be pretty tough.

But as somebody who is learning who they are and their place in the world.

Right.

Like to be.

To be like.

It's.

Why honestly, your parents saying, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

Why?

That is almost worse.

Right?

Yeah, it's that kind of.

Yeah.

The second clue he gives, these are small in comparison to the time spent on them.

He mentions, Jamie mentions he's more like his mom or perhaps more in tune with her.

He doesn't really follow up on this, but it angers him to know that you get this feeling that it angers him that others can see this.

Like the girls who've made fun of him, they might not know the direct link that, oh, he's just like his mom, but that boils in him.

Yeah.

He's a kid who wants to be tough and callous and he's not.

Yes.

He's been told that's what gets girls.

That's what works.

Yep.

Then the signs get creepier.

Explains to Brian, Nancy doctors that he asked out Katie long before he killed her because she was at her weakest having yes.

Sentence, topless photo.

And that got out and he thought he could get a yes out of her in her moment of weakness.

And that's predator talk.

Mm.

These like, if you like.

I.

These like the way these is the part of the manosphere like the pickup artists, right?

Oh, right.

Yes.

Like, it's all about like.

Like how unhealthy.

Right.

Is this as a place to be coming from in forming like a good and loving relationship to be like, I've got to trap some.

I've got to trap someone.

She's not going to want to be with me and I have to, you know, get her against her will.

And I have to be in that position of power.

Right.

Because you're weak.

I've seen you with your shirt off, so.

Or a picture of you with your shirt off.

So now I am in control.

How horrible.

It's so scary.

It reminds me of one of their strategies.

You insult them.

If they're not in a place of weakness, you can insult them and get them down to them.

Sure.

And they are quote unquote drawn to you because they.

You have this power of pointing out there what's bad about a lady.

And that's.

Anyway.

And I gotta say, you know, we're talking about the content.

But the episode is so good at teasing this out.

Some of it's.

And just like the pacing of this episode is so good and so tense.

So, I mean, the content, I think, is what's really important to talk about.

But just this whole subtext of this is this is being done masterfully.

Yeah.

It is a slower paced episode and it is confined to this one room that might hinder the entertainment value to some.

It didn't for me, nor for you.

I loved it.

Yeah.

Somewhere in there, though, he stands over her like you had mentioned.

You almost sense that he feels this is how men should treat women.

And when he makes that jump at her as he.

Yeah.

Is he standing there above her like he might hit her or as if.

He'S gonna hurt her?

Yeah, man.

It makes viewers jump.

It's frightening and it's unbelievable that Briony is able to contain herself and that's his all.

That little 40 seconds worth of scene is just as scary as a horrible horror movie.

It's terrifying.

I read or looked at this scene for the character Jamie.

As you know, like this toxic stew has been here.

But things like throwing a chair and standing over a woman.

He's never done something like that before.

So I thought Owen Cooper played him as a kid who's becoming aware of his own power, so to speak.

Power to possibly hurt or intimidate others.

And, and, and it's.

It's like kind of seductive, right?

Like it makes you feel strong.

Yeah.

And his belittling of her.

Oh, you thought I was gonna hit you?

Look how scared you are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's intense.

And, and, and it's.

I like him kind of like discovering that kind of in real time as you're watching it is really chilling because it's like this is kind of the.

The road he's walking right now.

Yep.

It's not good and it's not healthy.

What an ending to this episode.

Yeah.

She eventually gets him out of there.

He has to leave anyway at.

At some point.

But she cries, gathers herself, and you get this returning sound of an ac.

Almost as if it's ever looming presence of hate there.

There's.

There's a huge sense too, that ladies feel this way and have to deal with this shit so much and do this.

This is like the private moment that maybe I was unaware of here, that ladies have to.

Okay, I've got to gather myself before I go to see what to do.

Whatever's next.

Yeah.

And it's a stereotype, right, that women are too emotional or whatever misogynistic stereotype.

And I think I really liked it because the psychologist had to be in complete control of herself in an utterly exhausting situation.

And we see.

Not we.

We see a young man who's completely out of control emotionally.

And like you said, she.

It's like.

It's almost like she times herself.

She has the moment where she cries for.

For Jamie.

I think there's actually I.

In her performance.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I love the actors.

And I think there's.

There's crying for Jamie, for the emotions in the room, and then she's like, well, that's.

That got to go.

And Jamie gets to just be pissed off the rest of his life and she doesn't.

As he screams outside of the room and bangs on the window.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

He.

He's out of.

It's the.

This.

Is this the stuff that he's being infested with?

It's.

It's really.

It's out of control.

Brian E.

Is played by Aaron daughter Dorothy.

Dorothy, Something like that.

Very good.

The psychologist who.

Whom we've been calling Briony.

A little extra note here.

One more extra note.

That guard constantly hovering over Brianny is just a reminder of what Jamie believes.

This guy inches closer and closer to her harassment every second.

And he's not even on screen that long.

He's, I guess, foreshadowing what Jamie's gonna really put into motion with his conversation.

He is absolutely.

What a creep.

Yeah, Yeah, I know.

It's like she's.

She's got to do this and she has to put up, you know, she's got to have this interview with Jamie and she's got to put up with all this.

Exactly.

We got a Great comment from 87 Jetta when we discussed the first episode of Adolescence.

I'll.

I'll read it word for word.

It's so good.

Yeah.

I don't think he would mind.

So as to avoid any spoilers, I won't get into any detail in discussing adolescence, buddy.

It's powerful.

I represented juvenile defendants in criminal cases for several years, and now I'm on the prosecution side, and the very nature of the job requires contending with some very disturbing things.

Watching the series reinforced, at least for me, that no matter how long and how often you're exposed to such awfulness, you never become completely used to it.

Stephen Graham's acting in the series is incredible, particularly in the fourth episode, and I think that sets up us to get there.

I think I would Agree.

Especially with the end of that, with all of it.

But especially the comment about Stephen Graham's acting and the way that he is really the linchpin of the fourth episode.

Yeah.

And some of the first, even on.

Occasion, some of the first.

Well, you know, I loved you.

This is kind of what I said with.

I feel like there's not nothing goes to waste.

Like stuff that happened in the first episode informs this last episode.

So even though everything is so different, it feels like a very natural place for this show to be.

A smart way to book in the series, man.

Episode four was a gut punch that ripped my heart out.

I can't fathom being a kid in the Internet age.

Yeah, that's going to be a big disconnect for people of my era and before to trying to dig into what it may be like to be young with a smartphone or the Internet so nearby.

I, I can't imagine growing up with a smartphone because like, you know, I think every kid encounter, you know, just in books or whatever, like stuff that's maybe a little bit inappropriate or, you know, you're just not.

It's too adult in the sense that like you just haven't had the life experience to deal with it.

But just like the, the easy availability of just really toxic stuff and, and not only that, but the way it's being reinforced in the real world with these people who would, you know, they're, they're, they're making money, they seem successful, they run countries.

You know, like it's real.

It just seems real.

Like I know, I know every generation feels like this and there is, I think we over idolize the innocence of youth because you kid.

We all know kids are, we all grew up with.

Kids aren't innocent.

They.

They wail on each other like everyone else.

But it is kind of.

You're kind of having something being stolen from you, I think.

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

Part it is.

I don't want to go like so far as to say, but you're kind of having childhood stolen from you.

You're 13.

You should not be thinking about, you know, it's just like the, like the joke in the school, right?

Like, isn't every 13 year old involuntarily celibate?

Like you're 13.

This shouldn't be the way that you're learning to interact with people.

Yeah, I think I was still playing with GI Joes at 13.

Oh, I for sure was.

Yeah.

I wept like a baby for episode four for.

On a few different Levels.

I felt so sorry for Eddie and his wife, Manda and Lisa, their daughter.

But I imagine every single parent believes they could have done more.

Yeah, Anytime there's a little or big mistake made by the kids, every parent has to think that here they weren't even close to being bad parents.

Not in the least.

Yet there's that moment where Eddie brings up this idea that I needed to toughen him up.

And it's a worry.

He doesn't say it quite like this, but it's a worry.

He needs to be just a little tougher.

I was scared for him.

My dad felt the same way about me.

Very similar scenario here.

Instead of sports, even I and the character Jamie prefer to draw.

And we're both good at it.

So same as Jamie there.

It's why I believe that this shit can happen so much more easily in the Internet age.

The wrong rabbit hole.

Yeah.

Your kids lost.

It's why I'm thankful I didn't grow up with the Internet.

Very similar things.

That could have been me buying into the manosphere.

And I'd like to think that I would have found it repulsive.

I.

Those thoughts, those misogynistic thoughts certainly existed before the Internet.

I could hear guys say this or that kind of degrading and very sexual about girls.

And I would just think to myself, this sounds bad.

This does not sound good.

I, I was repulsed by it.

And I, I did when I was at that age and of Jamie and similar thoughts were espoused by a queen.

It says felt icky.

Yeah.

A wrong turn or two or a long time with the Internet, which wasn't possible in 1986.

Who knows?

Yeah, I'll agree with you.

You know, like the, the.

His poor parents are blindsided.

They had no idea that any of this was in their kid.

This final chapter is about parents, obviously, but it was about parenting.

It's a delicate job.

You're gonna it up.

But you can amend some of this up easily.

I think in many cases too.

If he could, you know, if Eddie maybe recognize that in the moment or a day or two later, there could have been a bit of emendation.

How much?

Hard to say.

It's not the fault of Eddie and his wife.

I, I thought Stephen Graham's acting was pretty astounding.

This episode especially, you know, because, you know, it was.

It's kind of brought up in the first one, like classic.

Oh, what did the father did to him?

Do to him?

And we, we learn from, as we watch Steven go, that like, yeah, he.

He's Angry, he's at a boiling point.

There's a lot of frustration there.

Never at any point does he feel like he's a danger to his family.

At no point does he feel, you know, there's, there's disagreement.

It's never scary like that.

And I thought that was so impressive to, to have that as kind of the context for what you're the subtext, I guess, for what you're seeing.

Nice to also have the character of Lisa who demonstrates for us that she's fine, she's normal and maybe even better than fine.

She's probably quite a great kid.

Her poor parents, you know, ask, how did we make her?

And the answer is, you know, she answers the.

Jamie's mother, who's, who's Manda?

Is it Manda?

Manda.

No.

I'm forgetting everything.

Yeah.

Amanda answers back the same way we made him.

You know, it was one of many just deeply sad moments.

Very much the final scene where Eddie kisses the bunny, tucks it in, says to it as if it is Jamie, he's sorry.

He's probably a very large percentage of every father.

It's gut wrenching and kudos to the show, to Stephen Graham, to those that put it together.

This is a show people need to see at the people like me who know of these problems but just need this emotional story to reinforce how much care it's going to take, how much attention it might take.

Yeah, you're right.

Because, you know, these, these parents, you know, he's like, oh, I started working more.

She's like, yeah, but you know, he'd still come home and just run to his room, which is like kind of a normal thing for kids to do.

Right.

But they're, now they're blaming themselves for, well, we should have forced them to come down and whatever.

And I don't, I don't think they necessarily had like a right choice.

I don't think so.

I mean, the right choice is don't let your kid on the Internet or have a smartphone.

But that's not practical, especially in today's day and age when you need it for you at every level.

You need it for schoolwork.

I would argue, if I can push up against that, I would argue you'd need the computer, you don't need the phone.

Well, I would agree with that too.

The smartphone is, is a toy more often than not.

Dr.

Jonathan Haight released the book, what was it last year?

The Anxious Generation.

Yep.

It makes some pretty compelling arguments.

It makes great arguments.

I don't know why he caught Flack, I guess because the way the Internet and debate is structured is that you have to disagree somewhere.

You have to examine the thesis by turning over that rock and seeing what's underneath and what he missed.

I think his argument is excellent.

I think his big point of improvement across the nation is to hold out until they're 16 for a smartphone.

Nothing wrong with a phone.

And I'm getting into policy here.

But it goes well with this show.

You know, the, this is a finger pointing series at the manosphere.

Manosphere.

And it's ilk for sure.

It is an examination of what can happen to our boys.

Not.

And you know, some people online would say I wanted to know more about Katie.

That deserves its own set of episodes and Absolutely.

Series.

I do think that they did a very.

This is that Katie was never just a victim.

Right.

That we start getting a picture of her.

But yeah, I mean this show is, is looking.

It's, it's not.

This is going to sound horrible to say, but in a sense it's not Katie's story because it's a story of how could someone do this horrible thing.

And Katie's story deserves to be told.

Yeah.

And should be told.

But this story is unfortunately a story about what happens when you treat people as a means and not an end of themselves.

Right.

And, and, and, and, and what happened with this kid.

And it was horrible.

What happens when you treat them like objects as well.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah.

It's very gender specific here for the young guys and what they've been taught or perhaps picked up on about being quote unquote, eight man.

Yeah, I, I think it had to be made and I'm very glad.

I didn't know that it had to be made until I watched it.

And I'm very glad I've seen it.

I, I think another thing that I thought was, was very good is in that last episode with.

And you do have kind of Jamie's anxiety about being a man in his dad's eyes.

And then his dad admits like he was so bad at soccer, I literally couldn't watch it.

But then, you know, like brings up his drawing and this really like sweet, sensitive side of Jamie.

Right.

Like he was so proud of his son for sitting down there and drawing.

And I really liked how all this kind of together was like, if you're a young sensitive kid who's getting your brain baked in this stuff, it makes you hate and kill parts of yourself.

The part of Jamie that sat down at that kitchen table and drove, that drew those monsters, he's being told is weakness.

Right.

He's not really a man.

He's weak.

And it makes you kill these really, really good and important and parts of.

Parts of yourself.

And of course, it hurts other people as well too.

Yeah.

I know.

Because I killed that part of myself for many years until I had a daughter of my own and I started drawing again for her.

I think there's.

There's, you know, just the.

The world we live in.

There's probably every single one of us out there is.

Is gonna be like.

This idea of masculinity made me feel like I couldn't do X or I couldn't be Y because it's.

It's an ideal.

It's made up.

Nobody can do that.

I'm totally glad I had someone, a couple of someones to fall back on and who helped me see that's not 100% true.

Tough.

Tough watch.

But vital.

I thought that.

I thought adolescence was great.

And it really.

It really got the tears out of me.

I can see why.

Because that last episode is gutting.

Yep.

Absolutely gutting.

As a parent, brace yourself as a.

If you're a guy.

And maybe on the sensitive side, brace yourself.

You need.

Yeah.

But it's worth was very good.

Honestly.

One of the things that.

They could have done this for 10 episodes if they wanted to.

I was kind of amazed at the economy of it.

Right.

It really felt like they didn't get greedy.

They knew exactly what they wanted to do to portray, and that's what they portrayed.

That's right.

Smart move.

I think of picking the.

The four chapters that.

Yes.

Give you this and leave the rest to ambiguity.

Yeah.

There's still a lot that's not directly said, but you can kind of figure it out.

Oh, yeah.

It's suggested, you know, more than.

More than said.

And that's good.

There's.

There's a lot of loose ends that were never wrapped up.

And I think that's fine because that's life, right?

Yeah, it is.

Life isn't a story.

Not to maybe end on a louder note.

Did you.

How many.

How many times did you use captions for this one?

Oh, I did.

The whole time.

Yeah.

I'm at the age where something like a British accent.

If they're speaking quickly, I can't.

And then he.

This is too, like.

They've got more of like a northern accent.

Huh.

Which is.

So I'm like, subtitles, It'll help me out.

I did want to be clear on about four or five scenes in this last one.

So I would rewind it for 30 seconds and then double check what I heard.

I'm glad I did.

Subtitles on I'm very glad I did.

Yeah.

I think that brings us to the end of our podcast episode and we will be back next Tuesday.

We do have an upcoming break, the Tuesday after Easter.

Okay.

So just heads up there.

Once again, if you have it in you, we appreciate help with donations, specifically website and podcast hosting and improvement.

Cost a little money.

If you'd like to do that.

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Head to the Alabama take, click on donations or just click in our show notes each Tuesday, or if we release one on Thursday, which can happen every now and again if you do that.

Thank you very much for Adam and Donovan.

I'm Blaine, and we hope that you love yourself.

Thanks very much.