Back to 'House of the Dragon' and Why 'Cape Fear' Isn't What We Thought

[00:00:00] Hey, welcome to Taking It Down. This week, Adam, Donovan, and I are discussing that first episode back of House of the Dragon. And we're going to discuss episodes 2 through 4 of Cape Fear on Apple TV. But don't worry, because we do non-spoilers to begin, and then spoilers after the break. I'll get Adam and Donovan in here for the episode, so let's begin. I'll take the direction.

[00:00:30] Hello to Adam. He's here with me. Hello to Donovan. He's here with me. God bless them both for their time. Gentlemen, the bear is back on Hulu for its fifth and final season. I've been seeing reasonably good things about this. I've seen three episodes of the eight. Oh, wow. There are only eight. Oh, they're short. They're like 21 minutes. I devoured three in two days. It feels like there was a little bloat in maybe some of the last...

[00:00:58] I don't know if this is about me or about the bear. Sure. But I hit a point where I could just see the writing trick in the sense of, you know, I'm so crazy, Carmy. Like, what do I do? You know, just the stuttering and all that. And it passed from feeling authentic to artificial for whatever reason in my brain. So I'm hoping that having, like, cleansed and it's a little leaner and meaner, that I'll be more on board. Because when it's good, like, when it's good, it's good. Like, it can do authentic.

[00:01:27] But then sometimes I was just like, I've seen this trick before. I know what you're doing. It really kind of collapsed in on itself for me. Mm-hmm. I enjoy it and I care about the characters while they're on my screen. I think this theme may come up again today about another program we're discussing where it's like, when it's over, I'm just like, oh, okay. You're still doing that, buddy? That is very well said. And that's how I felt. And then I watched the first episode. I thought, they're going back to those tricks.

[00:01:55] But knowing it's the final season, that's been implanted in my mind, in my subconscious. And I'm like, okay, well, let's see where this goes. What are you going to do with that energy now? It gives you a little more direction when you know, right? That it's like, well, there's nothing else after this. So it better mean something. Is it good for three? The first three episodes is really good. I feel like it's a show that I do want to complete. I have to catch up on the prequel episode, too.

[00:02:24] I also haven't seen that one. Really? The surprise release one. Yeah, I still haven't. Okay, so you wouldn't have to, but it's nice. It's a compliment. I heard it was good. I want to see it. Two actors I like, you know? If you watched it after you watched the season of The Bear, I think you'll be fine, too. That's good to note in non-spoilers.

[00:02:49] I'm glad you brought that up because Gary, as it's called, definitely could watch before or after. I see now. And it works, I think. Yeah. Both ways. Is that where they go to Gary, Indiana? Yes. Is it really? Yeah. I thought you just knew the plot. Because there's also Gary the sommelier who works there. But it's not about him, obviously. Because if you go to Chicago from here, you kind of have to skirt Gary. And it's like, oof.

[00:03:19] Okay. Anybody listening in Gary, I'm sorry. You've got your finger on the pulse of that prolonged episode, I suppose you could call it. Every time I've been in a van that goes to Chicago, it's like there's jokes about like, oh, stop for gas and Gary. You know what I mean? Like, anyway. You might enjoy that episode more so than I did. And I liked it. And just, you've got a little inside knowledge. That's kind of funny. We're in non-spoilers, as I mentioned, in case anyone's listening.

[00:03:48] And new to the podcast is what I should say. In case you haven't seen any of these shows, we're going to talk about House of the Dragon and Cape Fear. Safe Space. It's much like the Trump administration is setting up across the country, I think. Feel free to laugh. Please laugh. I think I need the reference. Yeah, what is the reference? Just that the Trump administration is not making it safe anywhere, it seems. Oh, I see.

[00:04:19] I don't know if it was like safe spaces for people who like him. I'll tell you that, too. Why not? We're in the first episode back of House of the Dragon. It began its third season last Sunday, but we record on a Sunday afternoon. Puts us a week behind pretty much every Tuesday morning with Sunday shows. It might be of comfort to you to be one week behind as well. We know you're busy. How'd you do it remembering everything? And how long was that recap in the first episode?

[00:04:49] Horribly. If there was like a pop quiz on like what happened last season on, I would ace one on Dunk right now, which I think is a credit to the writing more than my memory. But House of the Dragon, they got too much going on. There's DEF plots going on in this, yes. I was actually surprised at how well, how much I remembered. And I'll agree with Adam.

[00:05:16] This is something watching this, I'm like, I don't think this actually is good for the show and probably works to its detriment. But there was a little something cozy. It'd be like, yeah, we got all the scheming. Like it's scheming time now. We got everyone, everyone's scheming. You know, just that kind of like. They're at it again. And I think I liked it, too, because Dunk and Egg was so different.

[00:05:40] And so having seen that earlier this year, that felt instead of like more of the same. So a credit, probably not really to House of the Dragons credit, although it was kind of fun for me. But credit to Night of the Seven Kingdoms. A lot less huge peens. It's pretty much a 100% downgrade. I mean, did it have a thrill for you for the first episode you talked about? You were back into the schemes.

[00:06:09] Did that maintain throughout the episode? They were very cute about holding their battle back. So that was that was kind of fun. But, you know, I was actually kind of on board. I remembered why I liked the actors that I liked. Some of the plots that I had interested to see how some of the plots developed. They did a cool set piece. It's kind of fun to see the I don't know. I thought it was pretty good.

[00:06:31] And then the continual, you know, the Queens, you know, the what's going to happen right now that one plan has been set in motion. And I have to be I feel like I have to be very bad. We are. And this is a spoiler kind of show for sure. Yes. And I do kind of like the way between season two and I feel like they're continuing out with this season. The violence has become inevitable. It kind of moves by a logic of its own. Right.

[00:06:59] It's it's some people are trying to stop this war, but the war is almost happening. It's almost less about contesting the throne than about now defeating the enemy who hurt you. They've lost contain. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I'm glad to see Sir Laris back. He's a snake. That practical. Adam, you alluded to maybe it's lost its charm for you.

[00:07:26] And is that Game of Thrones as almost as a whole or is that House of the Dragon specifically? I thought about this a lot. And if you're listening, you may think, why am I going to listen to a show where one of the hosts says the following, which is outside of the two queens, if like multiple major players had switched sides, I probably wouldn't have known.

[00:07:52] Now, I know once I get back into it, I'm like, I'm like, oh, well, you know, I patch over here. You're burnt guys. Silver dreads over here. You know, this is you slowly kind of work it out and it's still entertaining. And I don't know what I don't know. I think I wrestled a lot with like the end of the flagship was so bad or so anticlimactic that and I feel like we drag this out every time we talk about House of the Dragons.

[00:08:21] You're like, you don't want to get hurt again. You know what I mean? And it's kind of trying to do the same thing, whereas Dunkin' Egg was so that's how you like regain people's faith in a world, I think, is doing something completely different. It hasn't lost its shine. Like once I'm watching, I'm like, this is great. These are very good actors doing their thing. But yeah, I mean, maybe I'm just less invested.

[00:08:46] I don't like get online and try to see what other people are thinking generally. And just when it's on TV, great. I have to admit, when the score started playing and seeing the characters, many of whom I recognized, remembering most of the story, it just put me in a very specific, albeit fictional place. I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I felt like I was there, not to be too lame.

[00:09:13] But I was like, yeah, I'm back again in this fictional England, I suppose, or whatever you want to call it. Westeros, of course it is. Mostly England, a little Spain, some France. Thank you. That's kind of right, right? It kind of is. And I was excited. I didn't know how excited I would be. It's kind of like the bear. I didn't know that I cared anymore. But I did want to see it through. Because fifth season, then I pulled it up, saw that the episodes were very manageable, and I decided, okay.

[00:09:43] And once I was back in, I was like, oh, yeah, I do care. I'm super interested. Dare I say invested. I thought it had great action pieces, I suppose. But really, the big one, yes. Fantastic. A lot of fun stuff, I thought, too. I had to just stop myself from saying a very enthusiastic thing that would probably be construed as a spoiler, so I'll save it. Oh, okay. Cool.

[00:10:08] I do agree with Adam broadly, though, that this is the, of the two Game of Thrones shows currently being produced, this is the most Game of Thrones. Both a strength and a detriment. It has some strengths that are baked into the DNA, but I'd agree with Adam that there's some weaknesses baked in there, too. From what I understand, this is a spoiler for the end of season two, in case people are catching up.

[00:10:31] There's a lot of complaints that they're having to make Alicent and Rihanna in the same space again. That that's not quite the plot of the novella, and it just seems kind of silly to have that happen again. You know, they got George on the horn for this thing, so I'm not too worried. Also, I haven't read the novella, and possibly won't, because I don't want to make myself insane.

[00:10:57] You know, like, you read it, and you're like, uh, you know, you get all, I hate getting all nitpicky about adaptations. Now, sometimes adaptations do things that genuinely do not work, but the people who sit there, like, and annotate, like, the screenplay or something, like, that's not how it happened in the book. That's not how it happened. Like, get, do something else with your life. Well, I will say some of this is coming from critics who say it's a little silly to have them meet up again. Like, this shit probably- It was okay for me. It was okay for me, too. I didn't think much about it.

[00:11:26] It is a bit like, a lot about this show makes me think of the end of the main show was happening, and people are basically able to, like, video game fast travel all of a sudden. When, like, half of season one, they're like, these people are slowly going from Winterfell back to King's Landing. You know what I mean? Because it takes a while. And now you have, obviously, dragons change the equation a bit, but everything's moving much faster.

[00:11:54] You have these mortal enemies who just, we should talk. We'll just sneak into the others' stronghold and hash. It can feel a little silly. Granted, King's Landing and Dragonstone are much closer than maybe we think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is that, but still. Yeah, it was because it was the staging point for the invasion that started at King's Landing. I say as I push my glasses up my nose and through my skull.

[00:12:22] Speaking of adaptations, we can get a little further into Savannah this week with Cape Fear and Apple TV's version of that. It's obviously a remake of the Executioner's book, but this one, honestly, is starting to feel very much like a remake and an answer to the 1991 movie. Last week, we skipped Cape Fear, and we're trying to do a little catch-up here. So a couple of weeks ago, we were kind of on board with it, and I remember being very on board with it after the first episode at many levels.

[00:12:52] But the, I don't know, have the episodes improved? Have they plateaued? Where are you with this? I guess I'm mainly speaking to Donovan, and we'll do a little spoiler stuff with this on the other half. But for now, very general, what are you thinking so far? I'm so pulled along by Javier Bardem's performance. I think there are some weaknesses in other areas, but I am just kind of fascinated at what I'm going to see. I still haven't seen the Scorsese one since we talked.

[00:13:20] But I think, Blaine, you had kind of asked rhetorically, like, does Bardem have the it factor that De Niro has? And it's working for me. I think he's awesome. He is magnetic. Worth the trip, almost. My question is going to be for Donovan and our listeners, how much pulp do you want? How much is too much pulp? Are you okay with it spilling over into camp? If so, hey, I've got a show for you.

[00:13:52] I don't think from the very beginning. It's kind of a melodrama, right? Like, there's all these. It's like a melodrama with violent, violent shit. I still enjoy it. I accept it for what it is, though. And I think it will be interesting. I'm one episode ahead of Donovan, so I have seen the fifth episode. I'm at the halfway point. Donovan's almost there. He's seen four.

[00:14:20] And my estimation is, if you accept it for pulp and almost camp, I think you're going to have an interesting ride. Although there's going to be some character choices that you're going to scratch your head over and think, really? I haven't felt too much. There was a little bit of, and maybe we'll talk about this in spoilers, a little bit of unsubtledy in the writings.

[00:14:47] And I do think that's, like, personally, perhaps I overvalue subtlety, right? Like, maybe that's not, like, a really fair metric. But for me, it was like, okay, I see what you're setting up here. And then, bam, it was set up. I could agree with that. Let's do this, and we'll save some thoughts for spoilers. We'll take a break. 30 seconds. We'll be right back. Many interviews can ramble.

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[00:15:46] We're in spoilers now. I would like to suggest a new title for this episode of House of the Dragon. I'm ready. Operation Hot Mother. That's going to be a hot mission. So here's the deal. Back in West Rose, House of the Dragon picks up almost immediately after the events of the final episode of Season 2.

[00:16:09] Allison is actually entering the Red Keep from her trip to Dragonstone to tell, to make that sacrifice to friend Rhaena. Yeah, come in. You can kill my son. She never openly says yes, right? Or she gives the nod or something like that. She knows what she's agreeing to. Exactly. Because Rhaenyra makes it very, very plain what she's going to do.

[00:16:32] But as soon as she's back, she finds Aemon sitting on the throne, and Aegon is squandered off with Larry Strong, as one does. She may be pretty happy with one of those dudes scampering away, but maybe not the other one. Rhaenyra wants to fly off into King's Landing. Jace refuses, says it's a trap. Instead, he shuts her up in her own room, flies off into the battle where Corlys fights his nemesis, Lohar. And that's a lot of the episode.

[00:17:00] I'm being a little silly, but if I was going to make a change for the president of the United States, I would say if you go to war with someone, you can't use air power. Because, you know, for like Vietnam, Korea, you know, whatever, like we've had this idea that like, well, we can affect change on the ground with air power. And they kind of have the same feeling with these dragons, right? Like, well, they're big and unstoppable. Until you find out that someone has put some time into thinking about how they might deal with the dragon swooping down on them all of a sudden. And they have.

[00:17:29] Now it feels like everyone's got a method to try to shoot the dragons. Wasn't this a big deal in the original show when they're like, we figured out how to stop them? It was a big deal. But I think there was such a gap between when dragons existed that they probably had that technology, so to speak, had withered away. And they hadn't thought about it in so long. And so they were like, oh, yeah, let's build this. And then, yeah, you're right. It was a big deal.

[00:17:59] That's my thought. Because, you know, if you knew dragons could be flying around, you'd probably spend a hell of a lot of time thinking about what you might do when one flies over. But if they're all extinct, why am I going to make the big improbable crossbow when I have to? Probably take some man hours. My pushback on that is there was a lot of very wealthy people who were bored because they didn't have television. Would you not want to have a giant crossbow in that situation? I don't know how effective. I'm not saying those giant crossbows weren't made.

[00:18:29] I'm just saying they weren't effectively deployed on the battlefield. Sure. In an opening scene, did y'all see that dragon with the severe underbite tell that girl, hold on, just quit? He growled. He looked at her and said, wait a minute, I'm eating. Sheepstealer. Yeah. Reyna has zero confidence in approaching that dragon, and for good reason. He is wild, and they did a pretty good job of really showing, oh, he has never been tame.

[00:18:59] Even if you didn't know or couldn't remember, you got that information, I think, from that scene. Yes. Interesting concept that you can, differentiating that they're all borderline unstable, but this one is particularly, has gone too far somehow, has been free too long. I mean, what's the idea here? He was never born in captivity. Ah. He's a wild dragon, much like a feral animal. Weren't they all feral at one point?

[00:19:28] I think they'd been bred in captivity. But this has been done before. It must have. I mean, presumably at some point, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I have anything smart to say or think about this, but I am kind of intrigued with, like, this is a chosen one narrative, right? Because obviously only those with the Valyrian blood can ride dragons, as we find out from our various bastards, you know?

[00:19:56] That remains one of my favorite parts of a Game of Thrones production. Right. As much as I have been lukewarm on this so far, when they're like, because that's when you're, like, screaming in the TV, you're like, you got all these people, just throw them in there. Anybody that wants to give it a whirl. And they did. Yeah, that was great. And I think that's kind of, I feel like it's interesting how they've done that, where it's like, these guys, these chosen ones aren't Luke Skywalker, right? Like, what do you get chosen to do? You get chosen to ride, like, a nuclear bomb.

[00:20:26] Like, that's what you get chosen to do. Right. For good or ill. And Sheep Stealer is chaotic neutral. Yeah. Do any of them tip towards good? They're all kind of chaotic neutral. At least controlled, maybe at best. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying, you know, I don't think they have, they're definitely smart animals. That's always intriguing to me, it's just how smart they are. Yeah.

[00:20:53] Or in the sense that, like, maybe animal isn't quite right, because that sounds like I'm saying that I'm putting human beings above them. But I'm just saying, like, they're clearly not sentimental. Flying riptops. You know, like, you're right, like, they'll obey their riders, and they, pretty much, it seems like, if you tell them to burn someone, they're going to burn them. Yeah. Aemon proves how impetuous he is. His decision-making skills are fly off the cuff, usually with anger.

[00:21:23] He almost chops off the maester's head without making any investigation. I thought that was a good example of, this is how dangerous this kid is, and he is just a kid. I really like the guy who's playing Aemon. I think he's done a great job of making him feel actually scary and menacing, and I do think that it's a strength that the show has been.

[00:21:46] And they've kind of done a good job of portraying Aegon as, you know, not, like, competent, but bad-hearted, like, careless more than malicious. Whereas Aemon seems like he has a malicious streak in him. And he's a scary dude. He has the biggest dragon. He's not afraid of consequences. He's been hurt. He wants to fuck his mother. He wants to fuck his mother. Which, I mean, they're only probably, like, eight years apart. It's not that big a deal. Right.

[00:22:15] I do. I love the element of saying on Aemon there that they brought up he hasn't felt fear before or not since in a long time. Yes. And now that he, someone who is scary, who feels fear, that makes them scarier to others. Yes. That was a good. Because everybody else seems to be playing by.

[00:22:39] I mean, they make morally questionable decisions that I'm not sure, like, you know, the Geneva Convention is going to uphold. But there does seem to be some sort of, like, this is a familial conflict in a way. We need to behave a certain way. And he seems to, he's ready to break some rules. Agreed. And I think we got even some of that with the last season where it's like, you know, we had the kind of examination of, like, okay, some of this behavior is out of bounds.

[00:23:09] Like, the lords are only going to line up behind you if you behave in a certain way. And then Aemon, yeah, does not care. Well, the institutions are always, even if you have a dragon, there's some understanding that the houses and the institutions will outlast whatever you do. So you have to play ball in some way, which is interesting. Unless I'm incredibly wrong, right? Like, the king does not have a standing army.

[00:23:37] All both sides are pulling their forces from their allies, right? Right. It seems like it, yeah. Which, and I mean, most of those are not what we would understand as standing armies. But, you know, it's that feudal thing. You're raising the... Mm-hmm. So he's, the king is actually kind of limited, or the ruler is somewhat limited because their, you know, their battlefield success depends on their allies. Their lords who have sworn fealty to them.

[00:24:07] Well, and as they said in Duncan Egg, there's whatever, the Targaryens are kind of newcomers to the game. Exactly. You know, that these houses have been here a long time. They have very old problems with each other, and they're looking... If you're going to exist forever in your mind, like, what does one petulant Targaryen... Like, you solve a problem at that point. And you only have so many awards to give. Yeah. How many castles, seats.

[00:24:36] As they outlined, they're on the little island where the new dragon riders were. You don't get a castle. You get a horse. What do I want with a horse? That did make me laugh. I thought that was good. Displays their misunderstanding, or at least his, of what he could possibly get for putting his life in danger. I mean, he makes a good point. He's got a dragon now. He doesn't need a horse. Don't need a horse. I can get there faster.

[00:25:03] Olivia Cooke gets the award of the week for making two excellent silent acting choices. The first of which is when she makes the, I've made a huge mistake face as soon as she says that Eamon's on the throne. And the second, when he kisses her and she makes the expression of, that was gross. You know, I do think that, like, the acting in this is very solid. I like her a lot in the roles she's given.

[00:25:31] I think that somebody could play it a lot less than she does. I think she does a great job, and I agree with you, Blaine. Those were, especially the kiss face. It's like, okay, good. I'm glad we feel the same way about this. Yes. She isn't a Targaryen. She's a Hightower, and that grossed her the fuck out, as well it should. But I thought that there was a wonderful staging with Eamon's scene when we first see him.

[00:26:01] It was a Civil War-like brutality of the battlefield. I thought that was really good. I'm supposing it's just outside of Heron Hall or close enough. It looked very much like the photographs in Ken Burns' documentary. That's an interesting comparison, Blaine. I don't think I would have thought of that, but I agree that it looked very much. Game of Thrones, I think it's one of its approaches, right? It's an aftermath of the battle kind of show.

[00:26:30] Maybe not even the battle itself, if that makes any sense. Despite having some great battles. Exactly, but that's what it's more interested in, I think. Well, and it's also very interested in scenes where they're finishing people off, and what that looks like. We had another pretty brutal killing there on the highway. They get rid of the unimportant guys. But when you have knights in armor that are just like,

[00:26:59] I'm just going to tackle you to the ground and punch your face in with my iron fist. It's like, oh, this is not the place you want to be. There's nothing like swinging swords or anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bold move to have a Lannister killed offscreen. One of the lords. And that's a signal to us that these Northmen are strong. This war is way more about dragons, as Sir Christian Cole fears.

[00:27:28] He expresses that. Not saying he's wrong, but he has a defeatist outlook now. He's a bit of a Frenchman in 1917, isn't he? Yeah. Yes. That's him. We may win, but what's the point? What are we even doing here? Yeah. We're just shells of men. Let's skip over to the other side of the, well, not the other side, but into the sea. Man, the sea snake is a legend.

[00:27:55] And big plus on a set piece here for me. I thought it was very, very good. On a day where Donovan, I watched it yesterday. And early in the afternoon, Donovan texted the opening frame of Master and Commander. And I kind of had the itch. And then we get, this is what I was going to be very enthusiastic about in the non-spoiler section, is you got boats racing for a pass where they may get stuck on the rocks. Oh, that was so good. I'm in.

[00:28:24] This is great. I mean, they have done chase scenes before, but I don't remember a nautical set piece quite like this. Culminating in no holds barred where one ship smashes into the other and we get, you know, deck combat. Sign me up. 10 out of 10. People in their armor falling overboard. That was a great bit when she's like, how much do you weigh? Yeah. Throws the guys off, you know, just, it was great. With the exception of the original Game of Thrones, I think this may be the first time

[00:28:54] we've seen exactly what it would look like for pirates to attack one another in the 1700s? 1400s? Go back as much as you wish. They had cannons in the 1700s. Yeah. Okay, so it would be 1400s. All the violence that entails, I've never been able to really imagine quite well. I got it, but I don't know that I imagined it here. That really helped. It felt like true pirates. It made me think about like what I've read about, this is not the 1400s, which I agree with you, Blaine.

[00:29:23] This is, this is late medieval, early Renaissance stuff by and large. But reading about Greek warfare with their, because they had the trireme, kind of like these boats, right? Like you row them, but they can also be smashed into each other. And just how like horrible and brutal these battles would be. You know, you're, you're sitting, if you're sitting down rowing a boat and somebody smashes through the side of the ship into you, things are not going to go well.

[00:29:53] No, you don't just get to jump out. Yeah. And then of course there is the, you know, you're, you're shooting arrows at each other. You know, you're trying to close and grab, you know, there's, there's, there's infantry on the bridge waiting to fight, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty tough. It seems like it goes from, I mean, I thought the build up to all of this is great where he's like, well, we need to be at the front of the, he doesn't say column, but like, he's talking about organizing formations more or less. And to go from like, how do you even do that with a bunch of ships? How can, and they're like raising flags to communicate and all of that.

[00:30:23] Very fun. But to go from, we're going to shoot at each other for a while and try to outmaneuver each other. And then when all else fails, we're just going to like put a piece of wood and run towards each other on and fight on this tiny little ship. It's like, again, I want no part of this. I don't want to be fighting an armored guy in the mud on land. I don't want to be some dude swinging a cutlass at me. So this all sounds terrible.

[00:30:49] Extra points too, to Steve Toussaint, who's even better than he was in the previous two seasons. I thought he was so interesting to watch as the sea snake, the leader of these ships. Same. It's great. He's doing his good. I thought he was really good. Yeah, as good as the two queens who we've, the two queens and Eamon who we've brought up, those three, I think Steve Toussaint is in that arena of doing really good work. He is one of those actors, I imagine, who's had a lot of work in England, but I haven't seen him much in the States.

[00:31:19] He's a stage guy, right? I think so. Like a lot of these guys, he has a stage background. Yeah, he's got presence for sure when the camera's on him. Sometimes you just want like the dude, he's been a, you don't want to say neutered, right? But like he, you don't get to see him in his element very often on this show. Yeah, he hasn't been let off the, he's been played pretty tight by Rhaenyra and now he's in charge. He's in charge. There's no one else to stop what he wants to do in that situation.

[00:31:45] And even the point where he's like, just let me do it and grabs the wheel and guides him through. You're like, hell yeah, dude's doing stuff. When you grab that wheel, man, that was like legend. That's when you give the ball to Jordan at the end of the fourth. Absolutely. And then it's, it's all of the things that you're supposed to think about these dudes, right? Like I know every rock in the past that I own, you know what I mean?

[00:32:14] But to see it play out, it's a bit cliche, but it was awesome. Yeah. Look, sometimes things work for a reason, right? Yeah. Like you, you can sit watching and be like, okay, I know what they're doing. But if it works. Yeah. You knew something horrible was going to happen to Jace, but I think they put just enough in between his disobeying his mom and his death to make it thing, to kind of make you forget about that a little because you're too caught up in the action. Or make you wonder if it might be someone else. Exactly. Like there might be consequence.

[00:32:44] I did kind of always think it was going to be him, but they did give you enough time that it's like, is this going to be like, okay, he has to live with the consequences. Maybe his, the young lady, Bela, who's the, his hand in marriage. Yes. Who was also in the dragon. Yeah, either cousins or, yeah. And in comes sheep stealer, just going fucking wild, burn everything. That's how I am at work, by the way. I'm very much a sheep stealer.

[00:33:12] It's a good episode as a reminder, when you go with mass destruction, no one's going to win. Yeah. Yeah. They played such a good balance of like, these are unfeeling nuclear weapons, but also they're kind of like their dog. You know? Yes. Like when, when they find a new way to kill a dragon, I hate it. Of course. Yeah. I do too. When the, the poor thing is like, dragons aren't supposed to drown. That's not fair. Right.

[00:33:42] That's, that's such a good point, Adam. Because they really, and props to the special effects people who are doing a good job. Because you really do have the like, like it's not fair. He doesn't know what he's doing. Yeah. Get the rider. I don't care about the rider. Right. But, well, and then you start thinking maybe the rider's going to survive. And honestly, once a dragon's dead, I'm like, yeah, just shoot the kid. I don't. It's fine. But even the little, the additions of like, they hit him the first time.

[00:34:11] And then when they hit him the second time, you hear the boat go, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like they're kind of just doing it for sport. Yeah. It's like, this is, again. Of course you cheer. I don't want to live in a time. Well, they're cheering that, but they're also like, I think I can get them. You know what I mean? Like they're just taking pop shots from the side of the boat. We've discussed here with the original how there's just no sunlight in this darkness. This episode seems to want to ensure we realize that. But it's still well done and exciting, in my opinion. Execution's perfect.

[00:34:41] Don't we already know how brutal this place is? Yeah. But you need to still wade through it in order to get your story and get your characterization and see where it ends. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think that one of the things that Game of Thrones, the original, especially when it was more in the Martin, before it kind of went off the rails, is they do actually do usually a pretty good job of like, okay, you know, like all those, all that scurrying around, all those meetings, all that arguing, all that politicking.

[00:35:11] Here's what it comes out to. So this is the result of that, which I think would probably not land as much. It would be a different show if it was just about the intrigue. If it was solely about the intrigue, I guess I should say. We sheepstealers serving as a symbol of, you can cause some damage, you can hurt the enemy, but you're not in control of how that turns out. Yeah, it's shiny new toy, shiny new toy syndrome, right? Like you get something cool and expensive and then, you know, if you take it out on its first run.

[00:35:42] Well, it's also, and y'all correct me on her backstory, but like a bit of like try hard, like I want to help. Yeah, for sure. But I'm not really qualified to help. Yes, she hasn't been given her own dragon. She's not trained. She doesn't really know what to do. Right. Add that with a truly wild dragon. But if your identity is like, I should be able to do this. Oh, yeah. That would be tough. I get it. I'm not saying I'm not sympathetic for her. Yeah. I'm just saying it's such a kid thing, right?

[00:36:12] Uh-huh. It is, and it's... So many kids fighting. Yeah, the kids are fighting and it's what, forgive me, the woman who should have been queen last season who... Yes. ...dies on her. That's like, that is the relationship of rider and dragon. Yes. Seen to fruition, you know, and then you see these kids trying to get in the game and just make a mess of it. Yeah. Played by Eve Best. She had one of those R names, if I'm not mistaken,

[00:36:41] that's kind of gets mixed in with the rest, but she's the queen that never was. Dip right. I didn't like that scene. I didn't like seeing it again, where she's... Yeah. Where she falls. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Man, it's a tough death. Tougher than Jace, I think, very much. Yeah. I'm left with a couple questions this week. Lord Hightower, we're introduced to him, the young Lord Hightower. He's sniffing something, and at the supposed... I've seen him in other stuff. I like that guy.

[00:37:10] The actor they chose for him. I've seen it said that he's sniffing something simply because he's such a highfalutin guy that he just can't stand the smell of the battlefield, and this guy rides up and stinks, and he's like, go get a shower. But they also showed it on the trailer for next week that he's sniffing something. And I'm like, why is it so huge other than to characterize him as a fancy boy? We'll see. You think he's huffing instead of sniffing?

[00:37:40] Is that what you're implying? Yeah. I thought it was a drug or a headache remedy. Because that's what I thought, too, is like, I think there was an element of like, he can't, but like, he seems like pained. Oh. Right? And then he... Mm-hmm. And did the previously on for this week, the very long 20-minute previously on, did they do a head fake by showing us Otto Hightower? He didn't show up this episode. Mm-hmm. Allison's dad, former hand.

[00:38:10] Yeah. They show him in a cage, but that's it. Oh. I didn't remember. I was... I didn't catch it. He's coming back. It would be impossible to do a previously on without mentioning him. I suppose so. But they did go ahead and show him in a cage, which I found a little of a head fake. It's like, oh, well, we're not going to see where he is this week. Maybe next week. Just something to hang on to for us going into episode two. Keep wanting more. Yeah.

[00:38:39] So now we'll move into Cape Fear on Apple TV. It stars Amy Adams and Patrick Wilson. Lawyer couple. Anna and Tom Bowden is their names. They both had a hand in Javier Bardem's Max Cady going to prison for, I said 14 years, I think, a couple of weeks ago, but it's been 17 years. Anyway, he's out now and he wants a chat. He's chatty. He's a nice guy.

[00:39:05] Seemingly, if you didn't know that he would have an ulterior motive, you wouldn't think, he's okay, right? But then you get the scenes of him alone. Some of the things we'll cover this week that happened in episode two through four. He encounters a lady who finds him attractive. He goes to buy a car. He buys a house. These things show that, is he nice? Is he creepy? Is he dangerous?

[00:39:34] I mean, I think that that might actually be the best thing that the show has done. This may be something to do well in the movie, though. It's like, you know, especially from the beginning, that this is not a good guy. But also, it's like, you know, everything can be explained, right? Like, they do a good job of, like, what's he really up to? What's his game plan here? He straddles the line between lawful and illegal perfectly. Very well, yes.

[00:40:03] Last time, we didn't discuss Jamie Hector, most notably from The Wire. He's here as a former prisoner who helps Anna out a lot. It helps her see the world through that particular set of eyes of men who've been in jail. Yeah, and has a little bit of a, you know, he's also kind of, like, detective almost, where, like, he's got, like, the connections and stuff that he can actually start to uncover some background on people. Yeah.

[00:40:30] Beyond just being able to provide the context. Or, yeah, the context. Like, the point of view. That's the word I needed. He's got that sixth sense, in a way. It is nice to see. Isn't it nice to see, like, an actor? I haven't thought about him in years. And then he popped up, and it's like, I'm glad you're getting work. Like, he's good. It's kind of fun. It's a fun surprise. It has an age today. I know. It's incredible. Shocking how young he looks. Yeah.

[00:40:59] We didn't touch on the digital picture and the digital cameras and the digital home security system messing up. But I did think the digital picture fuzzing out is a nice touch to add to dread and tension. Yeah. And then did we get a little explanation of, like, there's some kind of Nevaeh has a claim she has a Wi-Fi blocker when they go to the blonde girl's parents' house.

[00:41:25] So I'm wondering if that's a, like, here's, if somebody's skulking around and it's messing up the Wi-Fi. I'm assuming these are all connected to the Internet. Nevaeh turns out to be both Zach's love interest and his sister Natalie's love interest. She turns into that and even coaxes, coaxes, forces Natalie into getting a piercing. She, it seemed coaxes.

[00:41:54] It seemed consensual by the end. I felt the second episode didn't have as many oh shit moments and that the jump scares were a little forced. I was really annoyed. I think this is the second episode. There's a jump scare that is the, it's a Callie or whatever, the blonde friend who the daughter's in love with. It's just her at the house. And I'm like, okay, okay.

[00:42:24] You know, like, it felt a little like, what was the point of that? Yeah, and then she, there's a moment too where Natalie goes into the unfinished part of the house that's still being fixed. And you know it's her mom there and it tries to make that jump scare. It's unnecessary. I would agree with that. Yeah, I think I'd agree. Like, it's been a minute since I watched it. I did watch the first two together. And I think this is pretty common with TV shows. The second one was just a drop off from the, from the first.

[00:42:52] And I think that is not, it feels like we say that a lot. Maybe I'm making that up, but I feel like that's, that's something common. And it's really turning into a pulp series. You mentioned high melodrama. Yes. Which is, I think that's what it wants to be. I was going to say, I think they played fair enough with us from the beginning.

[00:43:18] Like, I haven't watched it and felt like there's been a bait and switch here. You know, I'm like, I'm like, yeah, this is, I mean, part of it is like, you know, if they're putting Amy Adams in front of a camera with that accent, right? Like they're kind of, they're kind of, they're signaling something to us. Not that there's anything wrong with Amy Adams. She's great. You know, it's, it is, it is the, it is in more in the melodrama, right? And everyone's got a secret. And, you know, there's a lot.

[00:43:48] And I do think it's played pretty fair with us on that. You know, it is, you know, it's doing that thing that thrillers do sometimes where the message is be twisty above all else. Mm-hmm. And I do think that, you know, if we approach something and talk about like, you know, various facets of his quality, right? Like, I think something can be really good thriller and twisty, but like not necessarily be about anything more than that.

[00:44:16] I don't know if it's about anything more than just like, this guy's crazy. What's he going to do next? You know, I think it does have the opportunity to, you know, speak to something that's very real, which is people in the criminal justice system, wrongfully convicted or otherwise, or just the experiences that people have. But I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's interested in that, or if that's just the backdrop for the story, you know, in the sense that like, isn't it crazy that now Max

[00:44:45] Cady is working for this organization that, I don't know. You said it, I thought after the first episode, wow, it's got the gut punch moments as well as the interrogation of the criminal justice system. We're going to go there. This is going to be a really good piece of television. After four episodes, and I've seen the fifth, I will say, no, it's, it's going to be pretty

[00:45:11] much camp and thrills and scares and questions like do Tom and Anna deserve punishment? Yeah. I mean, I do think I'm going to stick with it because I, I think it's been enjoyable, but I agree with you, Blaine. I don't know. Camp means different things to different people. So I'm not sure if I would say that it goes into camp, but I think that you saying like pulp shading into, right?

[00:45:39] Like it can be so pulp that it kind of shades into like, okay, this is a little campy. Yeah. I think pulp, I think that was a very apt description that you, of the show as, as I've experienced it so far. Yeah. I'm only one episode ahead. We're very much on the same page. I think so. Yeah. I feel like the stuff you've said has made a lot of sense to me based on what I've seen. Two words is the reason why I'm going to continue to watch.

[00:46:08] Nipple piercing. It's actually Javier Bardem. I think I feel the same way. Hearing him say counselor in a Spanish accent. Okay. He's electrifying and he is charismatic and creepy and dangerous. You know, like we've seen him, we've seen that he's capable of casual violence. Yeah.

[00:46:37] Uh, actual violence. You know, sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's scary. The show does a good job of building dread. I'm going to give it that. Yeah. I've seen a lot of people online say that it is bad TV. I don't think it is. I think it's, I think that it wants to be what it is. Yes. I agree. I don't, I don't think it's bad TV.

[00:47:00] It's just, it is a little bit wrapped in the cloak of prestige TV where it's like, you know, you know, like, but I think we've seen a lot of shows that are able to do this. We're like, the actors are good and the production values are very high. And it like, it is sort of prestige TV, but that just like, just cause it has that wrapper doesn't mean that that's what the show is truly interested in. And it's filmed in a way that may even acknowledge it.

[00:47:30] It doesn't want to be as much as we thought it was at first. Oh, I feel like the filming is 100% backs up your, it's pulp. Uh huh. Just the way it's shot, which I think is actually like a credit to the folks doing this.

[00:47:46] Cause it like, I can't pull out like a specific scene, but they just do such a good job of like this kind of feeling as they're going around Savannah, as they're going around other places of kind of like, almost like dread, you know, like anything could happen. Yeah. Good job with dread. The end of episode three lets us know Juliette Lewis is the masked lady around in the shadows. Yep. Kind of took me by surprise. See what she's up to. She of course.

[00:48:16] She's played the daughter in the original Cape Fear. So it's kind of funny to have her back. I didn't actually know that. And if I'm not mistaken, won an Oscar for that role, if not a nomination. Okay. No, I didn't know that. Okay. Well, that's kind of fun. That's a fun nod. I mean, she's obviously a good actor. Yeah. She's, she's wild. She's crazy.

[00:48:45] So I'm excited to see what's gonna, what's gonna happen. So was it the third episode or the fourth episode where Max Cady drives them from Savannah to Atlanta in order to, to help out? I think that was the fourth episode, but I might be getting mixed up. Savannah to Atlanta is a damn haul. That's what I was thinking. That's a long car ride. Yeah, you can do it. Definitely can do it in a day. But it's gonna take up a chunk of your day.

[00:49:13] I'm just like, this guy hasn't driven in 17 years and you're letting him go from Savannah to Atlanta? Oh, he demands it. You can let him drive the car? He pretty much demands it. Yes, he does. But she does have the conversation with Ray, that's Jamie Hector's character, where he may have persuades her to look as if you're helping Max. That, that could have rubbed off on her to get in the car with him for that long. And they're not alone. They're with those, can't, they've got other folks. Yeah.

[00:49:42] The cameraman, the interviewer. And then in the fourth episode, that's the one called Pierced, which we keep referencing. Tom has lied to Zach's therapist about how his own brother has died. Yes. It wasn't a car accident, it was suicide. It's another layer of dishonesty for him because we've seen him meddle with an affair with Lexi, his co-worker. We've seen him hide the micro-dosing he's doing. Yeah, whatever, he's got the fun stuff there.

[00:50:12] It definitely gives a little to Lexi, let's up the ante here in our drinks. Yeah. She's for it. Some duplicity on his. Definitely. Definitely. I love how the score's used in scenes where there should be no obvious danger, but the sounds make it discomforting, downright creepy. Right. I think it's a great way of heightened fear. Again, take it on what it's giving you, and I don't think it's bad. I just don't think it's prestige. Agreed.

[00:50:39] If you're doing 10 episodes of this show with this premise, I kind of don't know how it, how you do it so it's not schlocky. Mm-hmm. I mean, the interest is more, what's Max Cady going to do yet next than look at the plight of these people stuck in the prison industrial system, for example. Mm-hmm. I think what viewers are complaining about, whether they know it or not, a few things. It's a little overcooked in its pulp.

[00:51:05] Its characters make really stupid decisions that we wouldn't make. And lastly, it does probably leave a couple of threads hanging that it does not want to answer until the end. And I think in order to do these very well, you have to answer a few and then pose new questions, and then answer a few and pose new questions each episode. Oh, it's definitely got some stuff it wants to keep dangling. For sure. For sure.

[00:51:30] The information that Nevaeh is Max's daughter seemed too much of a given to be an answer to any type of question. Instead, you have a lot of threads that are just hanging loose with no answers in sight until episode 10 or 9. And I think that's what people are really frustrated with. Most of all, the characters being a little dumb with their decisions. This guy is obviously dangerous, if for nothing else, being in prison 17 years.

[00:51:59] Keep a little distance, maybe, until you see his motives. And they're not really doing that. And then there are other dumb decisions. You know, Zach and Natalie. Natalie suddenly turns on her parents. That was my, I think I mentioned that. That was my real example of it's just not subtle. You know, like she has a bit where her mom says, what will, you know, if we didn't have you, you're the one who keeps it all together. And it's like, okay, this is set up for like, I'm cracking under the pressure of being the perfect daughter.

[00:52:28] And then bingo, next episode, she's cracking under the pressure of being the perfect daughter. And we're supposed to believe that it was her overhearing her mom and dad saying, well, what if they find out what we really did? Right. Dun, dun, dun. Yeah, I don't know. Is that enough for her to be hateful toward her parents? Well, maybe, maybe not. Like when Nevaeh in the picture being as convincing as she is with her, having her heart broken

[00:52:55] over the girl acting as if she's bisexual, but really turning out not to be. It may be all those add up. The, here's the thing, Donovan, and I'm curious what you think. All of that could add up to a daughter being, making the decision of, I'm going to be rude and hateful to my parents. What about the presentation of it makes you wonder if it's enough? Because in any other episode of television, you would think, wow, that's plenty. Yes, it makes sense for her to be mean now.

[00:53:25] It kind of felt to me like it happened because it had to happen for the plot line of Nevaeh getting closer to the family. And, and, you know, like she had to be ready to, I don't know. That, that's the way it felt to me. Like it's happening because it has to happen. Like you gave me an explanation and you know what? That's fine. I'm going with it. I'm not saying it out and out doesn't make sense. It's just, I understand that this is, this is for the plot, you know, I don't think we're

[00:53:55] going to have like a deep characterization of, you know, a young woman is under these pressures, both internal and external. I just, I don't, it's going to nod to that, but it's not really about that. There's the, also the thing that she's not Tom's actual daughter. She's his daughter. There's that. Yes. All of this, I think is not working for viewers because it's not blended. It just feels like standout moment. Okay. Back to the rest of the story. Standout moment.

[00:54:24] I'm mad at my parents. Standout moment. I'm not Tom's real daughter. And it's not so much a blend. It's not a part of the fabric. Yeah, I could see that. I could see that. And I'm curious as to what that would look like under a different show. And I don't know if this show wants to be that. Again, we said that. So, interesting to talk about even in that way. Yeah.

[00:54:48] It gives us stuff to, you know, it is always kind of almost as useful an exercise as to say, like, this is working for me. As to sit down and really puzzle through, like, hey, why isn't this working for me? You know, it really makes you kind of think about your, like, your own assumptions. Why isn't this the show I thought it was? Exactly. Exactly. I think that's it for us. I love that we get to do this. I love that you listened. For Adam and Donovan, I'm Blaine.

[00:55:17] And it's important that we have to say this. Be sure you've bonded with the dragon before you leap upon its spiny back. Jesus Christ. Have a great week, y'all. Don't also don't suddenly introduce your dragon to family. What a great one. Thanks, everyone.