The TV and streaming podcast for The Alabama Take returns from its winter break, which means it's time for movies. It's a set of three films, and every episode begins with some broad and non-spoiler thoughts to begin, and in this case, it's the Bob Dylan movie 'A Complete Unknown' (0:59). The crew then answers if 'Nosferatu' is worth the theater experience (7:34). Then they end the non-spoiler section with high praise for the streaming movie 'Conclave' on Peacock (15:34).
In the spoiler section, it's politics and identity with 'A Complete Unknown,' as well as some of what's fact and fiction from the film (21:59). They then tackle the eerie reimagining of 'Nosferatu,' where the gothic horror evokes a certain vibe (44:37). Lastly in spoilers, 'Conclave' really is a must-see movie as it offers a new and gripping story in the secretive world of papal elections where the guys discuss even more identity and politics (54:54).
This week's episode ends with a short vote on what other Dylan eras are worthy of film (1:21:53).
Check out a lot more from this podcast and the podcast family on The Alabama Take.
This week's ad comes from the podcast Seddy Bimco Part Two The Revenge, which you can discover in this link.
Hello, welcome to the Working Man's TV and Streaming podcast.
HostAnd folks, we're off the farm with this episode.
HostIndeed we did.
HostWe went to the movies.
HostWe toss in a streamer amongst the three discussions.
HostThis is our kind of going to the movies episode.
HostWe do it probably two or three times a year at the most.
HostKind of bends our rules, takes us out of just TV and streaming, puts us in the theater for at least a couple of episodes per year.
HostWe're going to begin with a complete unknown, the Bob Dylan movie.
HostWe're gonna go from there to Nosferatu, and then we'll end with Conclave, which is the only one that's streaming.
HostThat's on Peacock if you want to play along at home.
HostAs always, we'll begin.
HostNo spoilers, but we will talk about those three films in that order, but no spoilers.
HostSo don't freak out.
HostAnd then I will give you a heads up when we start talking about the details of each one.
HostSo are they any good?
HostWell, let's figure it out.
HostAlabama, take projection.
HostThe three of us, the three being me, Adam and Donovan.
HostWe're all here.
HostIt's kind of funny because we've been to the movies.
HostYou know, we do this twice a year, really.
HostOne time over the holidays and then once during the summer where we bend the rules of the podcast and we actually go to the movies and break down a movie or two that hasn't hit the streamers.
HostThat's what we're doing this week to actually double down on that, on that bending or breaking of the rule.
HostThat's how we ended up this week with only one of the three things on streaming.
HostWe're going to be talking about things in this order, non spoiler.
HostWe'll go a complete unknown Nosferatu.
HostAnd then on the tail end, we're going to do Conclave, which is our streaming choice.
HostUsually we do all streaming or all tv, but we, we had a break.
HostIt was the holidays.
HostWe were at the movies.
HostLet's begin.
HostIt's the Bob Dylan biopic starring Timothy Chamolay Chamberlay as the man himself in a complete unknown.
HostThe movie is directed by James Mangold, whom you may know from Logan Ford v.
HostFerrari walk the line 310 to Yuma remake.
HostIf you know the story of Dylan's early years at all, you know what's going to happen on screen.
HostStill, we won't cite specifics until later.
HostI think only Adam and I saw this one.
AdamI haven't seen it yet.
AdamThat's correct.
DonovanOkay, I Loved it.
DonovanI didn't know it was.
DonovanI saw it maybe a week after it came out.
DonovanAnd it was funny to run down this checklist of.
DonovanOf, like, people, you know.
DonovanI texted Blaine is Blaine.
DonovanYou can admit that you have spent time on Bob Dylan forums, right.
HostAdam?
HostI will admit.
HostI'll go so far as to admit to say I was kind of known on a Dylan forum for the early aughts.
DonovanI'm trying to establish your bona fides here.
HostYeah.
AdamNot only has.
AdamNot only has Blaine been on a forum, he's been thrown off of him.
HostI've not been thrown up.
HostI was a very nice and kind soul on these forums.
HostVery, very polite.
HostYe.
HostAnd I went by my real name, which is probably.
DonovanOh, really?
HostYeah, yeah.
HostWhy not?
DonovanSo I could probably find the archive.
DonovanMaybe.
HostI only.
HostI only would comment a few things or question a few things.
DonovanYeah, I knew a guy who got thrown off tighter Insider.
DonovanAnd then he.
DonovanHe, like, was so addicted to it that he got his buddy's login, but his buddy was like, slapping him on the hand, like, you cannot comment under my name and get me kicked off.
DonovanI say that to say I wanted the opinion of people who, with Dylan, are in pretty deep, you know, and then just ask folks who like Dylan and like movies.
DonovanAnd everybody had this attitude of, like, I'm shocked at how good it is maybe because I think everybody's kind of tempering expectations.
DonovanRight.
DonovanLike, here's this.
DonovanIf someone's life is borderline unfilmable, it's the guy who wrote volume one of his own autobiography and seems to have no intention of writing volume two and seemed to have no intent of telling the truth in volume one.
HostVery little.
DonovanHow do you pick a start and end point?
DonovanAnd it just did all of those things so well.
DonovanI think maybe people get jaded about the biopic and, like, what?
DonovanEspecially with music and me being surrounded by musicians.
DonovanYou're kind of easily dismissive of things.
DonovanI thought Walk the Line was a really good music biopic.
DonovanAnd so with all of these factors, I'm not surprised it ended up being very good.
DonovanBut I loved it.
DonovanMy friends that I know here in town who haven't gone yet, I keep texting them, like, hey, if you need a buddy to go to the movies with, I'll go see it again.
HostYeah, I've seen it twice.
HostI loved it to its core.
HostI appreciate that it knew it was a biopic, but decided to cover only those four years.
HostAnd as all movies have to do, it condensed a lot of things the moments James Mangold decided to use here earlier than it actually happened versus later, when it really happened in reality.
HostIt just worked.
HostIt clicked.
HostIt wasn't a case of trying to squeeze in more fact as much as it was to get emotional power out of an already vital.
HostAnd I'd forgotten revelatory story, revolutionary story.
HostI kind of forgotten that.
HostYou know, I think a lot of Dylan fans would admit that we kind of have forget.
HostForgotten that he played right before Dr.
HostKing's I have a Dream speech that's in this movie, but, like, for two seconds.
AdamI work at a community college and has an old archive of.
AdamOf newspapers and from the late 60s.
AdamI mean, the students are crazy.
AdamYou literally couldn't print half the stuff today.
AdamBut they're quoting, like.
AdamLike what.
AdamWhat Blaine is saying is like.
AdamLike this.
AdamBob Dylan was so important to these students that they're printing lyrics from his songs in the student newspaper.
AdamI mean, that's real impact.
AdamThese random community college students in Connecticut.
HostYeah.
AdamPrinting Dylan songs.
HostYeah.
HostI loved it to its core.
HostI thought that it could not have been any better considering what it was trying to do and take on.
HostIt's one of my favorite movies, but I am its audience, so it's hard to.
HostFor me to give a really clear opinion on it.
HostBut I would do my best in the spoiler section on what.
HostWhat I feel like made it tick with.
DonovanWith two of these movies.
DonovanConclave did this too.
DonovanI'm like, if you like ideas and you like big thoughts being important and having, like, real world impact.
HostOh, yeah.
DonovanThen this movie is for you.
DonovanAnd, like, when I think of art, I think that's what it is.
DonovanAnd I realize not everybody watches movies for that or listens to music for that, and that's fine.
DonovanBut I just can't imagine anybody who's like.
DonovanAnd I'd say this is unpretentiously as possible if you're serious about filming, if you enjoy being moved by something, I can't imagine not liking it.
HostYeah.
DonovanYeah.
HostIt's funny.
HostA quick aside that's totally related is Lee and I were talking this week, just the other day, about how we're so tired of our phones and social media and that we do actually watch TV and movies to activate our minds.
HostLike, we don't.
HostWe don't watch things passively.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanI think a great film you're still thinking about.
DonovanAnd if I was to quickly go down this list, I have thought a lot about a complete unknown, very little about Nosferatu, and a lot about Conclaves.
DonovanAnd seeing it.
HostWell, that's a perfect segue.
HostNext on the list is another film that's still in theaters, the Robert Edgar's new endeavor, Nosferatu.
HostMany folks, I suppose, know that the original version of nosferatu was a 1922 silent film.
HostA.
HostM.
HostI right?
HostNo, it was silent.
AdamRight, Correct.
AdamIt is.
HostIt is silent.
AdamAnd then Werner Herzogen.
HostYes.
AdamAlso made a version in the 70s.
HostIndeed.
AdamI think it was the 70s.
HostBoth went by some version of that ar.
HostArchaic name for vampire because it.
HostWas it because of some problems with the rights of Dracula originally in 1922.
HostIs that right?
AdamYeah.
AdamYes.
HostOkay.
AdamIt was basically like an unauthor.
AdamLike, it's Dracula.
AdamBut, you know, copyright law was a.
AdamWas a lot more loosey goosey too.
HostOkay.
AdamBut it's.
AdamIt's Dracula.
AdamYeah, it is, but, like, they're not acknowledging that it's Dracula at all.
AdamSo it's.
AdamIt's basically a pirated version of Dracula.
HostYes.
HostThe.
HostThe 22 film.
HostNow.
HostNow, Herzog could have done the 22 film.
HostCould have done whatever he wanted in 79, but he made his version of Nosferatu.
HostAnd then we have last December's version from Eggers, which stars Lily Rose Depp of the Idol and its train wreck on hbo.
HostBut this new incarnation of the film has also Nicholas Holt, Will Willem Dafoe, and Bill Skarsgard as the titular Nosferatu.
HostI didn't see this one.
HostSo this is gonna.
HostIt's an odd one here.
HostIt's rare that I'm the one who hasn't seen something.
HostI'm gonna let Adam and Donovan give us general feelings on what they felt about it.
HostAdam did send me a text that maybe could kick off the conversation, which is.
HostHe said, it feels like one you wait for at home.
HostRight.
DonovanI don't know.
DonovanI'm gonna.
DonovanThis is a tricky one because I love Eggers.
HostYeah.
DonovanAnd I think that the irony in that is this was a beautiful film.
DonovanIt looked amazing on the big screen.
DonovanI saw one review say, if you're walking out of the theater and you're hearing people say, wow, the cinematography was great.
DonovanThat probably doesn't bode that well for how good the story was.
DonovanA 24 Eggers.
DonovanA classic plot, these familiar elements, you're kind of expecting a home run.
DonovanSo I don't know that that's completely fair to a film to walk in with, but I was kind of lukewarm on it, unfortunately.
AdamI was the Blaine of this movie.
DonovanThis was for you.
AdamThis was for Me?
AdamYeah, I.
AdamThis is one I'm glad I saw on the big screen because.
AdamAnd I.
AdamAnd I liked.
AdamYou know, a lot of people said it was, like, sedate and boring.
AdamI was.
AdamI got the feeling that it's like.
AdamIt really felt like you're adapting, like, and made up, like, early 19th century, like.
AdamLike a Gothic novel from, like, 1846 or whatever.
AdamI liked the cinematography, I liked the acting, and I liked that it.
AdamWhat.
AdamWhat it did to my expectations.
AdamYeah, it just all kind of worked for me because I actually have thought about it since it's gone.
DonovanI agree with all of that.
DonovanAnd maybe I was being too harsh.
DonovanI thought it was good.
DonovanI didn't think it was outstanding.
DonovanOkay.
DonovanI should say, like, I thought that if we're comparing his films, it's.
DonovanI mean, the Witch is top of the heap for me, and it's.
DonovanIt's kind of like the mark to beat if I think that he's done something great, which is probably not fair.
HostYeah.
AdamI actually ended up.
AdamI think I liked it more than now than I did, walking out of the theater.
AdamAnd it was.
HostIt.
AdamIt's hard for me to describe why, because there were just, like, lots of little things where I'm like, oh, yeah, I like that they did this.
AdamLike, this.
AdamThis was weird.
AdamThis was creepy.
AdamThis was unsettling.
AdamThis worked for me.
HostHow much benefit does it did you have, having seen the 22 version and the 79?
AdamFor me, it's mostly.
AdamI felt like I saw the analogues, like, where they're like, oh, this bit was in, like.
AdamThere's stuff in the 22.
AdamI thought, can I.
AdamIs it.
AdamIs it a spoiler to, like, basically say things from Dracula?
HostI don't think so.
AdamOkay, so, you know, in the.
AdamIn the Herzog, there's.
AdamThere's the.
AdamIt's actually this really, really great scene where the ship that the Count has been on is.
AdamYou know, everyone dies on it.
AdamRight.
AdamAnd it comes up this canal.
AdamIt's supposed to be in a German city or something.
AdamIt comes up this canal with no one alive on it, and then rats come out and there starts to be Pestilence.
AdamAnd the city kind of starts to break down.
AdamAnd there were a bunch of stuff there where I'm like, oh, okay, I see.
AdamLike, he was probably really inspired by Herzog here.
AdamHe was probably really inspired by.
AdamI think it was Murnau, or was it Pabst?
AdamThe first one.
AdamAnd then stuff like, oh, okay, he's doing his own thing there.
HostYeah.
AdamSo I.
AdamI Enjoyed it.
AdamBut by no means do you have to see the other two.
HostYeah.
AdamAlthough I would recommend you see the other two, which are probably honestly, like, maybe not better than this one, but I felt like they were all doing enough of a different thing that I didn't mind having seen the same story three times.
HostYeah.
HostOf the three, which one do you.
HostWould you tell people to watch?
DonovanFor sure.
AdamOh, boy.
AdamThe original.
AdamThe original.
AdamIf you're fine with silent film, the original one is so striking and the original Count Orlok is so creepy.
HostYeah.
AdamThat it's.
AdamIt's like.
AdamIt's.
AdamIt's almost.
AdamWell, I mean, it's.
AdamIt's.
AdamIt's a movie with a plot and everything, but it's more.
AdamIt's almost like just these like primordial images.
HostYeah, it is that.
AdamGet that get stuck in your brain.
HostYeah.
HostEverybody knows that image of the 1922 Nosferatu.
AdamSure.
AdamThe.
AdamThe Herzog one, though, you know, is great.
AdamHerzog's a great director.
AdamHe does more with.
AdamLike, he does more with.
AdamWith the effect of this thing on the city.
AdamKlaus Kinski is a horrible person and an amazing warlock.
HostYeah.
HostI got you.
AdamIt's like, if you can.
AdamIf you.
AdamHerzog had the advantage of finding, like, the one guy who was like, as evil as Dracula to play Dracula.
HostThat seems to be the case.
HostYeah.
HostAdam said that if you leave a theater talking about the cinematography versus the story might not be so good.
HostWell, here you could talk about the either one.
HostConclave was a beautiful film from late 2024, I think it was released in and around September or October, but it is now on Peacock.
HostSo this is one you could play along at home with if you want.
HostIt's directed by Ed Edward Berger.
HostHe also directed the Netflix movie All Quiet on the Western front, of which both of you guys loved.
HostI didn't c.
HostBut y'all both gave it a high prize around this.
AdamI gave it.
AdamI.
AdamI'm not sure if I would say I loved it, but it's like, oh, this is.
AdamThis is a thumbs up for me.
HostYeah.
HostIt's about this time last year you guys were talking about that.
HostAnd here's something that's wild.
HostI don't know if y'all realize this.
HostEdward Berger has directed at least one episode of the show, your honor, as well as the Terror.
HostHuh.
DonovanDidn't know that.
HostAt least one, if not more.
AdamIt's coming full circle.
HostSure is.
HostAll roads lead to the terror, which if those.
HostOf course, this is inside joke completely, because nobody knows this, but Adam has recently watched the Terror on Netflix, which was originally on AMC 34 years ago.
AdamAnd now I have watched 8/10 of the Terror.
AdamAnd only college football is the reason I haven't watched more.
HostYeah, it's a good show.
AdamWe can highly frankly talking with you guys because I could be in my living room right now.
HostWell, I was going to say, if our listeners want a freebie, go watch the Terror on Netflix.
HostIt's about five years old.
DonovanYeah, yeah.
DonovanI mean, just got Jared Harris flexing on everybody.
AdamJared, man, he's so good, but everyone's really good.
AdamI love Jared.
HostShip tries to traverse some very cold waters.
HostThere you go.
HostBut don't, don't take it from us.
HostConclave, though, is Adapted from a 2016 Robert Harris novel.
HostFilm gives an inside, albeit a fictional, look at a conclave where Cardinal Thomas Lawrence, played by Ray F, leads a sudden conclave for a new pope when the last one suddenly dies.
HostAnd while he conducts this mysterious conclave, Cardinal Lawrence finds out all kinds of secrets.
HostOne secret kind of leads to another.
HostThe movie fits our mold, our rules, because it's currently streaming on Peacock.
HostAnd it's.
HostIt's also got John Lithgow, Stanley Tucci, Both of those guys are cardinals.
HostAnd it's got out of retirement Isabella Rossellini as David Letterman.
HostUsed to.
HostUsed to love that.
HostNon spoiler sections.
HostI'll start.
HostI came into this movie fairly curious as to what it could present that I hadn't seen in two seasons of the wildly entertaining HBO series the Young Pope.
HostI seriously thought, there's no way this movie is going to tell me anything I haven't seen in that show.
HostWell, well, guess what?
AdamBlame for this movie, they had an old.
HostThey had an old pope.
HostThey had the wool over my eyes.
HostLet me tell you something.
DonovanThe old bait and switch, completely different.
HostNo, I was not enthralled at first, but conclave slowly enveloped me with this internal and political intrigue found not just within the story, which you've seen in various forms, but with the characters.
HostIt became interesting as through two questions like, what secret does that guy have?
HostAnd which one of these guys is worse?
HostIt's.
HostIt almost became a detective story for me as much as.
HostAs much as it was about a conclave, absolutely.
HostI'd say it was a detective story without as many clues.
HostBecause I was watching, thinking, okay, where's my clue?
HostWhat's.
HostWhat am I supposed to get?
HostYou get the clues as Cardinal Lawrence gets them.
HostSo you're with him, the Ralph Vines character.
HostAnd did I like it.
HostYeah, a lot.
HostI.
HostI really did.
HostI.
HostIt just builded.
HostIt continued to build.
HostContinued to build, and I really liked it a lot.
DonovanIf A Complete Unknown was for Blaine and Nosferatu was for Donovan, this film was for me.
DonovanThis was Cardinal Morrow, two thumbs up.
DonovanI loved it.
HostYeah.
HostThere is nothing wrong with this movie there.
HostI do have a slight thing or two I'll mention, but it's.
HostIt's.
HostIt's barely a critique I'll give.
AdamJust with my, like, general impression of watching it is like, Ralph Fiennes just has an ability to bring you in to his characters, doesn't he?
AdamLike, I was so instantly intrigued by him.
AdamAnd then also, I mean, a lot of good stuff to say about this movie for being what could be like, a fairly standard, like, melodrama.
AdamI feel like it elevated that.
HostOh, yeah.
HostYou know, good call.
AdamAnd so I feel like the script actually was.
AdamWas good.
HostYes.
AdamAnd pretty smart.
HostYeah, sure.
AdamI.
AdamI thought it was definitely done.
DonovanIt's listed on Peacock if you.
DonovanYou know, it has the quick genre description underneath it.
DonovanIt says thriller.
HostYeah.
DonovanAnd, you know, there's.
DonovanI don't know, the Da Vinci Code and Angels of Demons through, like, things like the Two Popes, which are.
DonovanIs just like a thoughtful conversation between two great actors.
DonovanYou know, it's a pretty wide range of things that you get dealing with the Catholic Church in this day and age.
DonovanAnd I feel like this one threaded the needle really well.
DonovanOf, like.
DonovanYeah, it's kind of a detective story, but it's also people who are completely serious about their convictions, and they may not always be religious convictions, but, like, these are serious people.
DonovanTaking a job seriously in the film is not, like, winking at the camera.
DonovanLike, look at who still puts this much importance on religion in 2024.
DonovanYou know, it's.
DonovanIt's given the full gravity of its potential.
HostThat's.
HostYeah, it is a sharp script.
DonovanI mean, it.
DonovanTo me, it felt like.
DonovanLike, my phone is currently buzzing because I.
DonovanI've texted so many people, like, you should watch this.
HostYeah.
DonovanMe and Hayden always joke.
DonovanWe.
DonovanCapital S, capital L.
DonovanSerious literature.
DonovanThis is a serious literature film.
HostYeah.
DonovanI mean, the layers of literary references, historical references, all that stuff.
DonovanAnd then a few people have texted back, you know, holy crap, that.
DonovanThat cast list is insane.
DonovanAnd my response has been, not only is it insane, but they're all at, like, full stride from minute one of this.
HostYeah.
HostSome of them not even on screen for very long, and.
HostAnd they're great.
HostYep.
AdamI think something that like, just like.
AdamAs far as, like, the movie being made that supports all of this too is like.
AdamI thought it was paced extremely well.
HostThis is maybe one of the best pace movies I've seen.
AdamYeah.
AdamFor something that could be really.
AdamAnd I think that just goes and serves everything Adam was talking about.
AdamWhere it doesn't it.
AdamThe pacing is so good.
AdamYou're not caught up on it.
AdamAnd it gives.
AdamIt gives each scene enough time to build upon each other.
AdamI thought that was like, for something that you can.
AdamYou can see a version of this movie right.
AdamWhere it's like, oh, this is boring.
AdamThis was not that movie.
AdamThis was paced extremely well.
HostYeah.
HostThat was the big worry of mine that it was going to be.
HostLet's insert a break here.
HostAnd on the other side, we'll run them down with spoilers in the order that we began.
HostSeti Bimco R to the Revenge.
AdamWe create revenge sequels for movies that never had them.
HostMovies like Creature from Blackpink, Hercules in New York, the Choppas White Christmas, Psychotronic Man, Critters, Return to Baki Creep, Killer.
AdamClouds from Outer Space, Road Tour, Mac.
DonovanAnd Me, Crypt of Dark Secrets.
AdamGeorge.
DonovanRemember the time we made a revenge sequel to Equinox?
DonovanYou had to go to the hospital.
AdamYeah.
HostSeti Pimco Part two, the Revenge.
DonovanEvery Wednesday.
DonovanAny place you listen to podcasts.
HostStart where we began.
HostWe'll go with a complete unknown.
HostThe James Mangold Bob Dylan Story.
HostBob Dylan had a full reign on the script.
HostI think Mangold met with him about three or four times.
HostDylan read it, made notes, gave it back.
HostHow intimidating would that be?
AdamI assume the hardest part of communicating with Bob Dylan is figuring out what the hell he's talking about.
HostYeah.
HostNot the way that he speaks.
HostIt's nice.
HostNot a Dylan joke in the way that he speaks, but.
AdamNo, he speaks a metaphor.
AdamMore in the way he texts.
HostYeah.
AdamOr tweets.
DonovanHe's a pretty straight shooter on those tweets.
DonovanHave I.
DonovanI know that we have.
DonovanWe discussed this on air, that I'm kind of fascinated by the idea of, like.
DonovanLike, if you are this incredible before and after historical figure in whatever your field is, you don't get to have that person.
DonovanBob Dylan has, you know, his heroes.
DonovanBut, like, the Beatles had Bob Dylan.
AdamRight.
DonovanYou know, everybody following him, it's like there's this dude who's like.
DonovanAnd he's still with us, living in this over half a century, three quarters of a century that he kind of created.
HostYeah.
DonovanAnd he's.
DonovanHe's kind of like, not that he's stuck in a pre Dylan world.
DonovanLike, how do you move through the world like that?
DonovanI kept thinking about that during this film.
HostYeah, me too.
HostBefore this movie was an idea.
HostI was watching something with Timothy Chamolay and I thought, man, he would be a good Dylan in a movie.
HostBut that won't ever happen.
HostHis casting never bothered me in the least.
HostWhen I found out, I thought, that's perfect.
HostGreat idea.
HostI guess I figured out shortly after it was James Mangold and he was directing and writing it.
HostI didn't even bother with a trailer for this one.
HostI was just like, all right.
HostI mean.
HostAnd I think news.
HostTimothy Chamolay had been taking guitar lessons.
HostAnd then due to Covid, they had to halt shooting, which gave him longer time to practice guitar and harmonica.
HostAnd I was like, well, it's gonna be fine.
HostHe's putting in the work.
HostIt's going to be great.
DonovanIt proved out he even played in the very specific.
DonovanIt almost takes that long because he probably had to learn to play guitar normally and then, like, unlearn the things to sound like Dylan in 1960.
DonovanWhatever.
DonovanMy guitar brain.
DonovanThe rhythms are so weird in the way that he very.
DonovanHe moved around.
DonovanIt's almost like borderline.
DonovanNot good.
DonovanBut it's perfect for the song.
HostNo, it isn't.
HostAlmost not good.
HostYou're right.
HostHe talked about working with a dialect coach to get Dylan's cadence down.
HostChevrolet does a wonderful performance.
HostAnd it's the classic thing you can say, which is, he doesn't make a caricature of.
HostOf the guy, but yet it's very much Bob Dylan.
HostI.
HostIt's a line that he straddles that I can't quite describe.
DonovanI mean, the first test, right, is him.
DonovanIt opens.
DonovanWe get him walking through New York City.
DonovanAnd I think when they announced this, we texted amongst ourselves and I.
DonovanMy opinion was, I will go see anything that's high budget with people smoking cigarettes in the village in the 60s.
HostYeah.
HostWell, that's what this is.
DonovanYeah.
AdamIf you're wearing a nice winter coat.
AdamOh, boy.
DonovanYeah.
AdamBoy, howdy.
DonovanSo we're already checking boxes before we even get to that hospital scene.
DonovanAnd they kind of throw them in the deep end.
DonovanLike, okay, this is.
DonovanWhat's your.
DonovanHow much Dylan are you going to bring to your Dylan?
HostYeah.
HostThis movie made me emotional and not.
HostNot just tears.
HostThat's not the only emotion.
HostThere is rage.
HostI was smiling.
HostI was smiling the whole time.
HostYou know, I won't ever see a young Dylan unless It's in clips, but the movie helps you to feel like maybe you did.
HostIt was hard for me not to sing along too loudly.
HostAnd that 1961 New York.
HostYou're there.
HostThe sets were amazing.
HostHigh dollar.
HostI just loved how he boiled the director.
HostBoiled it down to.
HostIt's.
HostIt's about the personal versus the political.
HostFor me, it was.
HostThere's a lot more to say about the film, but this is what I could carry away from it.
HostYou know, what the people around Dylan didn't see or couldn't fathom was that when you start blending ideas or taking something from one piece and another.
HostSomething from another piece and you combined it into something maybe new or maybe hybrid, then that is kind of political.
DonovanYeah, absolutely.
HostThrough that they couldn't see past their own nose and.
HostOr at least that's the way they're presented the film.
AdamThat's such an interesting point, Blaine, because like, we often think of like, for example, like the impressionists.
AdamRight.
AdamLike, oh, they just painted pretty pictures.
AdamBut it was actually like a radical break with like, tradition.
AdamRight.
AdamSo just like painting pictures in this way of the countryside is a statement.
AdamRight.
AdamLike just putting forth something new in art is a statement in and of itself besides any other statement.
DonovanI like that they.
DonovanThey showed that early on when he's.
DonovanHe's working the radio and he wants to listen to everything.
HostYeah.
DonovanYou know, Seeger's.
DonovanMaybe less and.
DonovanCan we shout out to.
DonovanEdward Norton was so good in this movie.
HostEdward Norton was so perfect.
HostNo, perfect as Pete Seeger.
HostYou get the sense that Pete Seeger's probably a really sweet guy anyway.
HostHe was very.
HostFor the downtrodden.
HostWanted to help people of America and that's how Edward Norton plays him.
HostBut also Norton plays him with a sweet sensibility that.
HostThat's probably a little over the top.
HostIt's a little over baked.
HostBut it had to be because if it's the movie.
HostBecause somebody's heart has to break when Dylan.
HostWhen Dylan goes electric.
DonovanWell, and you need.
DonovanHe's surrounded by antagonists in that moment.
DonovanRight.
DonovanI love Lomax just getting the hatchet job there.
DonovanBut apparently there really was a.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanA physical altercation.
HostYeah.
HostBetween.
HostBetween Grossman and.
HostYeah.
HostDylan's manager.
DonovanYeah.
HostWho was kind of an.
HostAt the time.
DonovanWell, that's the thing in real life, every.
HostYeah.
DonovanI mean, what if you.
DonovanI want to make a sweeping blanket statement for the effect of comedy and possibly this film.
DonovanI don't know how many people who didn't have some connection to some CD underworld were in the music business in 1960.
AdamWhatever.
DonovanI'm not saying they were an organized crime, but I'm not saying they weren't either.
DonovanYeah.
AdamYe.
DonovanSo I mean, it's just.
DonovanIt's.
DonovanYeah, of course, everybody's an.
DonovanYou know, and I think giving Making Seeger the.
DonovanLike you felt for him, like the moments when Dylan sees him and he kind of like.
DonovanLike winces like, I don't want to talk to this guy right now.
DonovanLike, your heart kind of hurts when you're watching the movie.
DonovanYes, but you understand both sides.
DonovanAnd I think, yeah, you do.
DonovanThey used, you know, if they had said, like the arc of the film is Dylan comes to New York and then he goes electric at the end.
DonovanIt's like, okay, that's good.
DonovanBut then the way that they layered relationships on top of that, it took it to another and you can't.
DonovanI mean, sometimes friendships take a real arc like that.
DonovanBut, you know, it takes some fictionalization to have a lot coalesce at the same time.
DonovanSo, you know, I'm sure they blended.
DonovanYou would know better than me a few stories to create that outcome.
DonovanBut yeah, that blurring.
DonovanThat doesn't bother me at all because it was.
DonovanIt just captured the heart of it so much.
DonovanAnd the other thing it did great, that is to your point about the.
DonovanThe political side of it and the radical side, you know, we texted about.
DonovanFor me growing up, it felt like we were like beyond the end of history, you know, like the.
DonovanThe Berlin Wall has come down.
DonovanCivil rights is decades in the past.
DonovanAll these things.
DonovanAnd it's like, oh, all our problems are solved.
DonovanAnd clearly the last 10 years enough, whether it's, you know, the invention of the cell phone camera so that you can show that, oh, a lot of bad shit's still going on, or having a.
DonovanThis is.
DonovanThis is not a political side statement.
DonovanA convicted felon is going to be president.
DonovanYou know, this is complex times we're living in to then see.
DonovanI think this movie coming out now was way more impactful than if they had done this when they did Walk the Line.
HostLike, what would it have been like if they.
HostIf it had come out during 04.
DonovanWhen walk the Line, it feels more like a victory lap then, like, look.
HostAt, like, how good we did.
DonovanLike boomers kind of looking back and saying what a crazy time that we lived through.
DonovanBut, man, we solved all the problems and now it's like we live.
DonovanAnd obviously 2004, we were invading the Middle east and it was complex then, but, you know, that scene of Joan Baez trying to figure out what to do during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
HostYeah.
DonovanAnd she finds Dylan playing at a club.
DonovanIt's like, this is who this guy was, you know, we think I got a greatest hit CD with Blowing in the Wind and just wore it out when I was 15, 16, but.
DonovanAnd loved it.
DonovanBut you don't have the full picture of, like, was physically frightening to go play a civil rights march, or it was physically frightening to, you know, they thought that the nuclear holocaust was about to happen.
DonovanAnd he grabs his guitar and goes down and plays.
DonovanDid that actually happen, Blaine?
HostNo.
DonovanIt's a great.
DonovanThat's great symbolism, though.
HostOh, yeah.
HostIt worked perfectly.
HostIn fact, he would probably have.
HostHe was working on its Hard Rain's Gonna Fall.
HostProbably not so much Masters of War around the human missile.
HostLike a few days after, if I'm not mistaken.
HostA few days.
HostMaybe a month or two.
DonovanBut to go down to the club while New York's evacuating, essentially, and tried out a masterpiece and then get some.
DonovanIt's the end of the world, baby.
DonovanAction from Joan Baez.
DonovanI mean, what a.
DonovanWhat a run of film that is.
HostAnd what a great actor.
HostMonica Marie.
HostOh, gosh, I'm blanking on the actress's name who played Joan Baez.
HostBut she was.
DonovanI thought she was great.
HostThe film really gives you an.
HostAlmost puts you in the shoes of this feeling.
HostI still have it to this day.
HostDonovan, have you ever been energized and happy about what you're doing, and then about midway through it, you're still energized and happy, but you think of the next good thing that you're going to be doing and you're like, oh, fuck, this thing I'm doing now.
HostI want to go do this next thing.
HostHave you ever been, like, you kind of had to be caffeinated in a way to do this, Adam, have you ever experienced where you're just like.
HostAnd it happens on stage a lot, where you're like, I'm playing the fuck out of this song, but I got a verse left.
HostI just can't wait to get the next song.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanI mean, it's like every creative project ever.
HostYeah.
HostI think I'm riding this goddamn wave and I want to get to the next thing because it's going to be awesome.
HostThat was Dylan then.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanIt's like you're eating a potato chip and already thinking about the next one.
HostYeah, well, kind of.
HostI mean, that really lowers my analogy, but thank you.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanIf you're Like a creative person, you almost have to have that like.
DonovanLike you just forget about anything bad that was associated with creating it.
DonovanAnd you're only thinking about the good and the rush.
DonovanAnd I mean, hasn't that was.
HostThat's what it was happening to him.
HostHe felt the.
HostHe felt the energy of playing with a band and it's like, nah, man, I can't wait to do this.
HostBut y'all were wanting me to play Blowing in the Wind again.
HostFuck.
DonovanI mean, even the scene where he.
DonovanThe composite character that Elle Fanning plays.
DonovanAnd I thought she did a fine job in that role.
HostWell, I don't think she was a composite so much as she was just.
HostDylan himself made them change her name.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanI don't know if they maybe mix some elements.
DonovanObviously she's.
DonovanRemind me the.
DonovanThe woman's name who's on the COVID of the record.
HostSusie Rotolo.
DonovanYep.
DonovanAnd Dylan wanted her privacy protected somewhat.
HostShe must have been a pretty important person to him.
HostShe was an activist up until her death, so she.
HostShe lived it and breathed it.
DonovanBut when they're having a conversation and he's.
DonovanI can't remember what song that he's playing, but he's kind of just noodling around on a chord progression and like, you're like, oh, my God.
DonovanHe's the kernel of Don't Think Twice is like, happening before our eyes, you know?
HostYeah.
DonovanIt had some of the, like the Beatles doc feeling of like.
DonovanLike they're playing Don't Let Me down and it's not quite there, but I know what they're missing and they don't know yet.
HostAnd I love that Mangold manages to present Dylan as a.
HostAs somehow, which was true, too.
HostAn absolute child, but yet the coolest grown up in the room.
DonovanYeah.
HostI don't know how they do that.
HostThe bomb bath that Dylan had to.
DonovanHave had, you know, the little detail of, like, he can make coffee.
DonovanHow did he learn how to make coffee?
HostYeah.
HostYeah.
HostDylan going electric was probably something he was going to do no matter who said not to.
HostIn fact, he probably did it because some said not to.
HostAnd.
HostBut the thing that they give us, which is true to the story, is that it scared him to death.
HostI love that he didn't know if he.
HostIf he had ended his burgeoning career, but he just wanted to try something and then he continued to do it for about a year and a few more months in the face of booing.
HostNot just for one night, but for a year.
HostAnd you don't get to see that in the movie because it would be a three hour movie.
HostBut, you know, he.
HostHe goes over to England and they're booing there and he.
HostAnd he gets so fucking sick of it, of the booing.
HostAt first, he's very funny with it.
HostAnd then by the end of the.
HostThe whole world tour and you can hear it in some of the recordings, he's just like, fuck y'all.
HostYou know, I know what I've got.
HostThis shit's actually in tune now, you know?
HostYeah.
DonovanThat.
DonovanThat complete dedication to.
DonovanOn both Sides, as the fans and as him, the creator.
DonovanLike, he's completely committed to an idea, but the people there are so passionate about this other idea.
DonovanYou know, there is no passive part of that relationship.
DonovanAnd I think that's nostalgic for all of us where, like, I couldn't imagine that any music would shock anyone at this point.
HostYeah, that's.
HostThat's the trick.
HostThat's something that people can't get their head around.
HostEven me sometimes.
HostI asked some students of mine about Dylan Friday and they.
HostThey hadn't heard of him.
HostAnd when I explained it to him, you just can't project how much of a bomb that was, how shocking that would have been.
DonovanYeah, I mean, there's no.
DonovanI can't.
DonovanI'm sure that someone who actually lived through it would say the same thing about trying to tell me when I was in high school, you know, even though, like, I.
DonovanYou can intellectually understand that.
DonovanBut this was the first.
DonovanNot the.
DonovanBecause I've seen the clips, but the movie did such a good job of making that real.
HostDoes the movie make that as important as it probably was for you, a viewer?
DonovanI thought so.
HostYeah.
DonovanI thought.
DonovanI mean, because there's a bunch of ways to do it, right?
DonovanLike, you can make him.
DonovanWe've already kind of touched on it.
DonovanBe like the unapologetic badass hero who just rolls in and does this thing.
DonovanAnd I'm right, you're wrong.
DonovanThis is the future.
DonovanDeal with it.
DonovanBut you get both sides.
HostMm.
DonovanYou understand why the traditionalists want to.
DonovanYou know, they've worked so hard.
DonovanNow they have.
DonovanThe Chosen One has come to elevate the art form to the masses.
DonovanAnd it's working.
DonovanBut now he's going to betray us and he feels weird about it.
DonovanAnd I mean, it's.
DonovanIt's so well done.
DonovanLike, it's.
HostYeah.
DonovanIt had to happen, you know.
HostYeah.
HostYou couldn't live.
HostLike Dylan was beginning to live.
HostHe was getting accosted everywhere and that had to have been exhausting and still is, I would imagine.
DonovanBut I mean, the scene of him getting punched in the face at the bar.
DonovanYeah, I don't.
DonovanDid that actually happen?
HostI.
HostI've never heard.
HostNever heard if that's ever.
HostI doubt it.
DonovanI've heard like, beat for Beat, the Celebrity Store.
DonovanLike, Tom York famously got punched in the face when he.
HostOh, did he really?
DonovanYeah, he, like, went out to a pub and this was when.
DonovanBecause I would assume British attitudes toward fame are a bit more resentful than ours.
DonovanBut it's.
HostIt's like, well, this was New York.
DonovanIt's.
DonovanI don't know that they would use the word uppity, but like, you know, who do you think you are?
DonovanYeah, kind of.
DonovanI punched this famous guy in the face, you know.
HostYeah.
HostI think that there's a good moment in the film where it's.
HostIt encapsulates that Dylan's response to it.
HostHe's surrounded by all these fans, many of whom just want something of him maybe to punch and maybe to see him, maybe to.
HostIn our day and time, it would be take your picture with him.
HostThough they did have cameras then.
HostAnd a girl says, you know, I won't be at the venue because it's sold out.
HostAnd he rolls down the window just a slight crack and he says, I'll sing louder.
HostAnd that.
HostAnd that's just pure Dylan from that era.
HostOne, because it's hilarious.
HostTwo, he's acknowledging I'm no longer doing acoustic.
HostAnd three, it's also you, but you.
DonovanWonder even that the times are so heady and confusing.
DonovanAnd here's this guy who is a lyrical genius and seems almost like a prophet or something.
DonovanAnd people are such, again, maybe more predisposed to take big ideas seriously.
DonovanLike, oh, here's like a signpost in this confusing landscape.
DonovanAnd then he starts moving.
DonovanSo you understand both why you'd want a piece of it and why you would be upset.
DonovanAnd that's.
DonovanThis is all.
DonovanObviously we're kind of veering into biographical Dylan stuff now, but this is completely what the film is about.
DonovanTo me, the.
HostThe key to the film, I think.
HostI think it might not be as great as it was, but for a four minute scene.
HostAnd that was Pete Seeger sitting down with Dylan in the early morning.
HostHe's brought coffee into the Newport Hotel and he says, we all had our teaspoons, putting dirt, try to balance the scales.
HostAnd you brought a shovel.
HostAnd I was like that.
HostI don't know if that conversation happened but that makes everything important that's happened and everything that comes after.
HostAll these actors were cooking, though.
HostYou know, there's the Joan Baez.
HostI thought Elle Fanning did great.
HostThere's a.
HostThere's a really good scene where Joan is trying to figure out they've just slept together.
HostAnd Joan's trying to figure out, are we.
HostIs this.
HostIs this a date thing?
HostIs this.
HostYou know, what's.
HostWhat do we have here?
HostAnd she asked him something along the lines of, what do we have here?
HostAnd since he's playing guitar, he says, I don't know, which could be an answer to the song he's playing or what.
HostOr what.
HostShe's asking him about their relationship, and then she just simply turns it on him by saying, well, let me have that song.
DonovanThen the relationship with the two women, obviously, you're.
DonovanYou're gleaning different things from each one.
DonovanThe scenes where they're doing the photo shoot in the apartment, and it's like he's gotten a $10,000 check, and things are starting to accelerate.
DonovanAnd that's kind of like an old conceit in these sort of biopics, right?
DonovanLike, whoever's with you before you're famous, now all of a sudden, that's a strained relationship.
DonovanThe way that they did with this one, that.
DonovanThat final conversation where she said, you're like, the guy.
DonovanI feel like the.
DonovanOne of the plates that the guy spins on Carson.
DonovanOh, yes, that was so good.
DonovanAnd Dylan even gets in a line like, I kind of like that guy.
HostYeah, he said so.
HostExactly what he said.
DonovanIt immediately grounds him in this.
DonovanLike, he just loves this weird Americana, circusy kind of stuff.
DonovanBut then she says, I'm sure it's great to be the guy spinning the plates, and that just hits you like a ton of bricks.
HostBut she says, but I'm one of the plates.
DonovanYeah, that was just such a good version of.
DonovanOf that arc that we're kind of familiar with.
DonovanAnd then the Baez arc of him immediately giving her for her songs being too pretty, essentially trying too hard.
DonovanI thought that was, you know, somebody who was kind of the top of the.
DonovanThe heap, then meets the one, you know, and it's like, obviously she's gone on to be pretty good herself, but.
HostSure, she's had a great career.
HostDo you have thoughts on Cash here in this version of Cash?
HostI thought this was.
HostMight be the ultimate version of Cash.
DonovanI.
DonovanI have heard that they tried to get Joaquin to do it at first.
HostOh, really?
HostThat would have been fascinating.
DonovanThat would have been pretty good.
DonovanBut I think it worked out for the best.
HostI think it worked out better.
DonovanI love that you just get this unhinged, you know, on speed and drinking.
DonovanHe's not reformed.
DonovanYou're not going to see that art close.
HostNo.
HostAnd, you know, the tramp.
HostMud on somebody's carpet or so good.
HostThat's a.
HostThat's a real line he wrote in a letter to Dylan, and he stood up for Dylan a lot.
HostThat's not a little.
HostIt's a little overplayed in the film, but he.
HostHe still did it.
HostI think he wrote an open letter to Village Voice or sing out where he wrote in capital, all capital.
HostLet.
HostLet the man sing.
DonovanDang.
HostI really wish they would have tried to mimic the one apocryphal story I've heard is that when Dylan first met him, though, they exchanged letters.
HostDylan look is so small.
HostDylan's a small guy and Cash is a big guy.
HostHe said he walked all the way around him and looked while looking up, and he said, yeah.
DonovanI like the way that they played it because they're.
DonovanIt's almost like they have been, like, Instagram buddies that they met in real life, you know, and, like, Dylan's almost a little bashful about it.
HostExactly.
DonovanAt first, but.
DonovanYeah, that was great.
HostAll right, last thing.
HostFinal scene, Dylan visiting Woody in the hospital one last time.
DonovanIf you're gonna make a biopic that doesn't try to.
DonovanA lot of time, I feel like they get too clever for their own good.
DonovanRight.
DonovanJust tell me a really good story.
DonovanDo it sequentially, even.
DonovanYou don't have to wow me with, you know, filmmaking here.
DonovanThat's a great way to leave off.
HostYeah, it was.
HostIt was bittersweet, but, yes, I thought it was very sad.
HostIt was a little overwrought, but still sad.
HostYeah, You.
HostYou could have conveyed that idea a thousand different ways.
HostBut to have Dylan visit Woody in the hospital, give him the harmonica back, and then kind of lovingly look at him as if to say, I made my decision.
HostYeah.
HostI can't.
HostI can't come back from it.
HostDoesn't mean I don't love you, though.
HostAnd then the jump cut to the really loud motorcycle, and we know where that goes.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanYou know, I mean, he's still riding the motorcycles, right?
DonovanOr he was.
HostYes, he is.
DonovanSo we.
DonovanWe have a buddy, world.
DonovanWe have a buddy who interned at a studio in Louisville where they said, dylan's coming.
HostYeah.
DonovanAnd, you know, he's.
DonovanHe's the lowly intern so they're like just be out of the way, blah, blah, blah.
DonovanAnd they had a garage attached to the studio.
DonovanAnd he said when they.
DonovanHim and his posse pulled in, the building shook from the motorcycles.
HostJeez.
HostWell, let's shift gears into that's so funny into some more scary.
HostI suppose the details from the latest from director Robert Eggers.
HostHis take on Nosferatu.
HostY'all have at it.
HostTell me what worked for you and what didn't.
HostIt's been noted as being maybe too slow, maybe a little dilatory.
HostWhat do you think?
AdamI almost don't feel like I can be.
AdamI didn't watch it with the critical eye.
AdamDoes that make sense?
HostYou just watch it for fun.
AdamNot that I'm saying like I sat down, I was like, okay, turn my brain off more.
AdamIs like this movie put me in more of like a sort of mood than movies.
AdamAnything else.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd that.
AdamAnd if I'm just like.
AdamIf I'm in.
AdamI find that really hard to analyze.
DonovanDoes that make sense?
DonovanI think the term vibe has been just like run into the ground at this point.
DonovanBut this was kind of a vibe piece.
DonovanYou know what I mean?
DonovanYou.
DonovanEven the points that it was making, you feel them as much as you.
DonovanWhich is a credit.
DonovanI mean, it's a good movie, but.
AdamThis may be too much.
AdamBut like spiritually with the first, I feel like it linked up kind of with the.
AdamThe 22 Nosferatu, where it's just like I don't need like if you just show me like a succession of im that don't necessarily make perfect sense, but like have that kind of weird like dream or nightmare sense where everything seems hyper real or elevated.
AdamI'm like, oh, that's gonna work really well for me.
DonovanI do think the.
DonovanIf we get into specifics of.
DonovanYou're talking about dream sequences.
DonovanNicholas Hoult, I think is always good, especially if he's playing the kind of in over his head.
DonovanMaybe he has like selfish motivations, but is not like a bad guy.
DonovanHe just kind of.
DonovanEven when he played Tolkien, it was.
DonovanHe was like kind of naive playing that role.
DonovanWhen he goes to the village and then kind of dream sees or does see that weird sacrifice thing happen and then goes into the castle.
DonovanAll of that sequence was so surreal and so great.
AdamI thought there was just.
AdamYeah, a lot of like the coach and like just the.
AdamThe horror and uneasiness of it.
AdamIt felt like a movie was like, oh, I don't need anything super explained.
AdamLike this is just like.
AdamThis is a malevolent force that humans are afraid of, but kind of don't know.
AdamLike they come up with their own explanations for it, right?
AdamLike, oh, he's a.
AdamHe's a magician who sold his soul.
AdamBut I think the, like.
AdamLike him just kind of being a malevolent force.
AdamAt one point, Orlok himself says, you know, I'm just appetite.
AdamI'm just hunger.
AdamLike that.
AdamThat's kind of scary to me.
AdamRight?
AdamLike, like, like there's nothing more here.
AdamThere's nothing interesting.
AdamThere's nothing more than just like this hunger.
HostDid it say something differently than the two previous versions for you especially, maybe in the context of the years they.
AdamWere produced, just because on it, walking out and this was a con.
AdamI think I texted you all this, but I was like, that felt like an older movie.
HostThat's right.
HostYou did say that.
AdamIt didn't feel like a movie from 2024 necessarily.
AdamI don't.
AdamI don't know what that means and I'm not going to justify it.
DonovanThat does make sense.
HostIt's been noted for its gore too.
HostIs that right?
HostDid I.
HostHave I read a headline that's right about that.
AdamThere's a few gory scenes.
HostDid it feel ridiculous with its gore or something?
HostBecause it seemed like.
HostSo the headline was alluding to that.
AdamI think, by and large, at least in my recollection, it does a very good job of kind of letting you imagine the worst of what is happening.
AdamRight.
AdamLike there's a scene where, like, he's very clearly finished killing some children and you don't really see the.
AdamThe deaths, but you see him toss a body, a silhouette of a body aside.
AdamAnd the way he feeds is.
AdamIs fairly grotesque as well.
DonovanAnd hot.
AdamAnd hot.
AdamOh, super hot.
DonovanI mean, we haven't even started talking about the.
DonovanThe sexuality of all of it, which is fairly intense is what I have to say about it.
HostIs it.
HostIs it more sexualized than the.
HostThan the other two?
HostMore overtly, yes and no.
HostIt would almost have to be right in 2024.
AdamWhat they do kind of have a really good thread running through all three of them is like, you really get this kind of like, gross sense that this thing is like a disease.
AdamYeah, like, like.
AdamAnd you almost have the, like, like it's kind of like horrible for anyone, much less a young woman, to be touched by this, like, kind of like, revolting thing.
DonovanAnd he is purely revolting.
DonovanThere's no.
DonovanAt no point is like a handsome man standing there.
DonovanNo that, like, changes by night or whatever.
AdamI Gotta tell you, I loved the way they did Bill Skarsgarden as Orlok.
AdamAnd I feel like they made him look almost like a, like a.
AdamLike an End of Napoleonic wars ulan.
AdamLike he's, he's, he's.
AdamEven for the time that he's in, like he's a little old fashioned.
AdamYou know, like he's kind of up with the times, but he's.
AdamAnd I just thought like he just is placed so well there.
AdamI thought that was.
AdamI really liked.
AdamAnd the.
AdamSome people might be very annoyed by it, but the.
AdamHe had like Darth Vader breathing which worked for me too.
AdamWhere it's like this body is deceased.
DonovanYeah.
AdamLike it should not be touched.
AdamIt's.
AdamIt's a corpse.
AdamThis guy is walking around and he's dead.
DonovanI mean we want to throw our ibuterol at the screen while we're watching it.
AdamYeah.
DonovanClear those lungs out, buddy.
DonovanIt did.
DonovanYou know you said earlier in the.
DonovanThe initial talk about this, it feels like an 1840 whatever Gothic piece.
DonovanIt did work as such.
DonovanLike a little, you know, the things contracted the whole time.
DonovanRight.
DonovanAnd you obviously there's things like with how seriously are we taking women and their complaints about medical issues that are being talked about.
AdamThat absolutely.
DonovanThat, that felt of.
DonovanIn a good way of his time that you're throwing the absurdity of that into relief.
DonovanAnd then you got somebody like Willem Dafoe showing up, which I think I texted you that he made me laugh.
DonovanBut I'm not sure that he was completely in control of when that happened.
AdamThat is exactly.
AdamMy feeling about, about his character is like I was delighted to see him because it's just like he's, he's out of his mind.
AdamThis is great.
DonovanHe's always going to kill it.
DonovanAnd he.
AdamYeah.
DonovanAs insane as they made him as that, that expert kind of figure, like he was unhinged at all times.
DonovanYou know.
DonovanAnd it was the classic kind of like this guy's crazy, but these are crazy circumstances.
DonovanWe just have to accept him.
DonovanRight.
DonovanI thought it was you said earlier talking about different films approach to the effect on the city that it has.
DonovanThis one had such like.
DonovanLike I thought of Camus, the Plague the whole time.
DonovanLike everybody's kind of suffering through this thing.
DonovanThat a man accompanying his wife and two children to the graveyard is like not even the saddest thing that's going to happen that day.
AdamRight.
AdamJust a Hellscape and the plague imagery really felt like Camus.
AdamAnd also Herzog I think did a really Good job with that.
AdamWillem Dafoe is like.
AdamHe's like Nicholas Cage when he shows up.
AdamYou know he's never going to give it less than 110%.
AdamLike you just don't really know what's going to.
DonovanI love it.
AdamI found him very entertaining.
AdamAnd yeah, the, the creepy sex stuff, very good.
HostWe're in spoiler territory.
HostIs there just blatant sex in it?
AdamNot as such.
HostYou're being coy here.
AdamThere's.
AdamThere's penetration.
AdamSo at the end of the movie, Lily Rose Depp's character, basically Willem Dafoe realizes that like they've got to destroy his resting place and they've got to keep him out passed on.
AdamAnd like he literally can't resist her.
AdamSo she's like, yes, come to me.
AdamSo she's naked on the bed and the way he feeds is he kind of bites you right on your breastbone.
AdamSo he's like this tick or bug like over her and he makes these really gross like gulping noises.
HostOkay.
AdamAnd so, yeah, it's pretty.
AdamIt's pretty gross.
DonovanIt's pretty intense.
AdamIt's good.
AdamIt was good.
HostAnd then.
AdamAnd then he does.
AdamStays out.
AdamRight.
AdamAnd his body crumbles into.
AdamTo this horrible desiccated thing and she dies as well.
DonovanSo he dies on top of her?
AdamYeah, he dies on top of her with like this dried up body.
AdamYeah, on top of this.
AdamThis lovely young woman.
AdamAnd it's pretty gross.
AdamI think it works well like a lizard brain level.
AdamDoes that make sense?
HostYeah.
HostNo.
HostWell, we all want to go out.
DonovanThere's definitely some lizard brain in universe decision making with Nicholas Holden.
DonovanHer like him trying to like retain.
DonovanIs retaining ownership the way to explain why they have that angry sex?
AdamYeah.
HostInteresting choice of words.
HostYeah.
AdamYou know what I kind of wondered at the end of that scene is because there's been some stuff that didn't really.
AdamDid it even happen at all because we've seen her mental state, has had some dreams that seem pretty real.
AdamI like the ambiguity.
AdamI don't think you can prove one way or the other.
AdamI like the ambiguity of it.
HostGive me.
HostWe should have done this earlier, but give me a five star ranking here.
HostGive me a letterbox.
HostFive star.
DonovanThree for me.
HostYeah.
HostOkay.
AdamI don't know if I want.
AdamI would even say I probably not.
AdamFive for me.
AdamLike I don't want to oversell it, but I don't want to undersell it either.
AdamIt's maybe four, four maybe.
AdamMaybe higher.
AdamIf I watch it again, it could go up or down, but we'll say a tentative four.
AdamFor me, I like this.
AdamThis is a tentative four and a recommendation.
AdamYou can watch it at home.
AdamI liked seeing it in the theater because of the production and the sound design.
AdamI felt like that was very fun.
AdamAlso, I went to it by myself, which is great because then I can eat as much popcorn as I want.
AdamGod can't see me in the theater.
HostGod can't see you.
HostI think that's what Pete Wee Herman got in trouble about in the 1990s.
HostOur last movie is one that's actually not as much about God, maybe.
HostI don't know.
HostIt's streaming on Peacock.
HostPlay along, if you will.
HostEarlier, we said we'd recommend it.
HostIt's conclave.
HostIt's about a secret voting technique for the Pope.
HostThat's what conclave is, and it garners more and more mystery upon each scene.
HostI, for one, am happy that at least one religion is able to have a little fun at its own expense.
HostWasn't this commissioned by the church?
HostDo Catholics believe in Jesus?
HostAre they the.
HostIs it a religion Catholics?
DonovanYour evangelical is showing Blaine.
AdamHe was raised Baptist.
AdamHe can't help himself.
HostGuys, I went into this movie not knowing a damn thing about it other than the name and that it, you know, the commercials would say it's intriguing and that, you know, that kind of thing.
HostAnd I.
HostAnd I glossed over that.
HostWhatever.
HostSo early.
HostEarly and often the music did the heavy lifting for me because I would go, oh, wait, what is it?
HostIs it really this kind of movie that deserves this kind of music?
HostBecause again, I thought it was just going to be about a conclave.
HostMaybe there was an issue here or there.
HostThis guy didn't get along with this guy.
HostThere's a little back biting, and God damn some back biting.
HostAll right?
HostBut there was.
HostThere was a lot more.
DonovanI loved it.
HostSome high tension.
AdamI really appreciate a movie.
AdamI watched it with my wife last night.
AdamI really appreciate a movie like this because there's.
AdamThere's a particular scene in here where I got to lean over to my wife and say, did you get that?
AdamIt's the Holy Spirit.
AdamAnd then she divorced me.
HostWell, you hate Catholics.
HostIt's been.
HostYou've said so on this podcast of how much you just hate Catholicism.
HostSo let's go on.
HostLet's get into that.
HostWhen you go back through this one, I really do.
HostI really wish I would have given it the attention it deserved.
HostWhich is not to say I wasn't, because I was watching it it's propulsive.
HostEvery scene leads to the next one, and then the next thing leads to the next one.
HostAnd it's perfectly well done in that sense.
HostI wasn't playing on my phone, but I was taking kind of notes on my phone.
HostAnd I would get lost in a note and be thinking, how could I fray?
HostAnd then I'd look up at the screen and go, oh, God, I missed.
HostAnd I rewind it for, like three minutes, and it's a.
HostThat happened.
DonovanWell, the other thing that it did to maybe exaggerate that is you got some subtitles, but not all of the subtitles.
HostThat's true.
HostAt first I was wondering, do I have the subtitles on?
HostDo I need to turn them on?
DonovanAnd I think that that is like a clear indication that this film respects its audience enough to, you know, if you're.
DonovanIf you're listening to people, Cardinals in Rome talk.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanThey may just lapse into Latin at times, and you don't know what they're talking about or you're supposed to infer or you didn't catch all of the, you know, someone speaking in Spanish just off screen or Italian or whatever.
DonovanAnd you.
HostYeah.
DonovanAre meant to just infer, glean whatever they're.
DonovanThey're actually getting at.
HostEverything in this movie felt as though it's done nicely and they trimmed the fat perfectly.
HostEarly on in the film, you get Ralph Fahn's character speaking to the cardinals there to cast their votes, and he's talking to them about doubt.
HostIt immediately took me back to the play in the movie of the same name.
HostSo I was trying to figure out where is this movie wanting to sit.
HostI quickly came to the conclusion it's, oh, this is a movie that's about politics and religion where there's not really.
HostIt doesn't matter who God is or what you think God is.
HostThis is about the.
HostThe political.
DonovanWell, and it's.
HostThat's what I thought early, by the way.
HostLet me.
HostLet me just say this.
HostIn the first 30 minutes, things change.
HostAnd.
HostAnd, well, so I feel like, like.
DonovanI said at the top, you're always with.
DonovanWith films that center on religion.
DonovanYou're trying to figure out how seriously that film takes the religion it's talking about.
DonovanAnd I think this was done.
DonovanThese were allowed to be very intelligent men who had power agendas in a political sense.
DonovanBut also, I mean, you see some of them completely break down over what they would consider a moral failing or, you know, Ralph Fine's character is a cynical read and a different outcome would have made him this puppet master, this master manipulator the whole time.
DonovanBut by the end, through his subtle acting and the script, of course, it's just this guy who was trying to do his best, or that's the sense that I had.
HostMe too.
AdamSame.
DonovanAnd if you had a lesser cast, I don't think that you can pull off all of that nuance.
DonovanLike, it took a.
DonovanJust a stacked list of actors to make this tick in the way that it did.
AdamIt was kind of underneath all of it.
AdamAnd I think that this is what I pulled from those great actors, too, with the kind of, like, doubt and certainty.
AdamIs this almost bigger question about what religion or metaphysics or whatever gives you.
AdamRight.
AdamLike, we want that certain.
AdamDon't we want that certainty?
AdamWe want to be very certain.
AdamAnd it's scary to have somebody who's like, we're.
AdamI don't know.
AdamLike, we'll figure it out, I guess.
AdamAnd I felt like there, you know, there was that kind of good push and pull, too, because I was the whole time watching it, I'm like, you know, I'm.
AdamObviously, I want some of these people to be pope and some of these people not to be pope.
HostYeah.
AdamBut it's hard.
AdamBut, boy, it's hard to found a religion on uncertainty.
HostYeah.
AdamAnd like.
AdamLike a.
AdamLike a something.
AdamAnd by that I mean like something that works in and of this world politically, not necessarily in the ideal form, if that makes sense.
DonovanCan I give you all a.
DonovanOn that point?
DonovanDid y'all catch the.
DonovanThe reference to Yates that happens when.
HostYeah.
HostYes.
DonovanSo absolutely.
DonovanWhen Tedesco tells Lawrence, things fall apart, the sinner cannot hold.
DonovanAnd he's referring to losing the Latin liturgy as like, the founding.
HostThat's the center for him.
DonovanRight.
DonovanAnd that you need.
DonovanIt's like Donovan saying, in a way, you.
DonovanEspecially towards the end or at the end when he gets up to give his speech about, like, the enemy is at the gates.
DonovanThis is not theoretical anymore.
DonovanWe need certainty.
DonovanWe need all these things.
DonovanI went back and.
DonovanAnd read just the stanza that things fall apart, the sinner cannot hold is in.
DonovanThe rest of that is mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, the blood dim tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned.
DonovanThe best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passion and intensity.
DonovanWhich, of course, ends up being the man who brought up the Yates in the first part, which is so good.
DonovanThat's so good for a movie.
DonovanI can't think of many films recently that have sent me to, you know, the bookshelf in that way to catch listeners up here.
HostRay Fonz plays Thomas Lawrence.
HostStanley Tucci's Bellini, who is.
HostIt seems like a viable and, and quite acceptable candidate for Pope.
HostIt seems as though that's who the audience should be rooting for.
HostJohn Lithgow plays Cardinal Tremblay, who matter might not be okay, but he seems to have some sort of secret which Cardinal Lawrence is going to figure out for us.
HostAnd there's the, the head nun sister and her.
HostThat's the Isabella Rosalini character.
HostAnd she kind of helps out Ray fonts to, you know, she, she gives him access to the computer after he tells her, you know, I really, I really need to know what the previous Pope on his deathbed or in his last days had done with Tremblay.
HostWhat's going on?
HostWhy, you know, there's a couple of secrets I need to know so I can be the dean here.
HostThis felt like a movie to me from the early aughts.
HostRemember how movies felt back then, like they didn't have to have bombast, but the, the, the excitement was in who was going to do what next.
AdamYou mean movies for adults?
HostYeah, I do mean movies for adults.
HostI've never seen one.
HostSo the Catholics is a religion.
AdamThey're making them less and less.
DonovanWell, they, they set it up early on with Tucci's Bellini saying, can I keep this chessboard?
DonovanRight.
DonovanAnd he says, I played with the Holy Father.
DonovanDid you ever win?
DonovanOh, oh, God, no.
DonovanHe was always eight moves ahead.
HostThat's right.
DonovanAnd then.
HostWhich makes you think he's just.
HostHow much of what to follow did the, did the dying Pope kind of maybe try to lay out?
DonovanAnd it's, it's playing with your expectations the whole time because you have this guy show up who nobody knows, and he's, he says, I'm a cardinal.
DonovanAnd they, they investigate and you know, they've already.
DonovanShortly after that, they again invoke the eights, where something's slouching towards Bethlehem and we're supposed to be a little anxious about it.
DonovanI don't know.
HostYeah, it gives you some baked in.
DonovanSuspense because you just, you, you're suspicious of everybody.
HostYeah, you're suspicious.
HostThat's it.
HostYou're thinking, is Thomas Lawrence the worthy one?
HostIs this new mysterious figure from Kabul?
HostHis name's Cardinal Benite.
HostBenitez.
HostHe seems genuine, kind.
HostIs he worthy?
HostHe seems very quiet, very.
HostForgive my word choice here, but demure he seems.
HostBut then you get Stanley Ticci.
HostHe Knows the ropes.
HostHe knows that I can be, you know, 80% progressive, but still kind of be 20% good old fashioned Catholic.
HostAnd that's where we need to be in this day and time.
DonovanWell, I love that he draws the line in that.
DonovanThe.
DonovanI'm going to call it the movie theater.
DonovanWhen they're in the movie theater talking, he says, yeah, you can say all of that.
DonovanI hold these liberal policies.
DonovanLet's not talk about women.
HostYeah, yeah, Exactly.
HostThat's the 20% of us.
DonovanYeah.
HostYes.
AdamThat was another thing, the movie just to jump on women dead for me, that I thought, you know, it is very tense and you're not sure who to trust.
AdamJust the setting with the cut, with the art, with every, with the, every the Vatican City setting and the, the way that, like the women just kind of like serve these men.
AdamIt's like, oh, there's like real power over real people.
AdamLike, there's power and money involved in this.
AdamAnd without like saying it, I think it just showed that so very well in a way that really, really worked for me.
AdamWell, who wouldn't want to be in charge of this?
AdamRight?
DonovanYeah.
DonovanAnd again, that's given weight.
DonovanLike the.
DonovanNow we look at Vatican City and think just the millions and millions of dollars, billions of dollars wrapped up in it and the ostentatiousness and all these things.
DonovanBut it's beautiful art.
DonovanAnd they're making these decisions that they believe, or at least a lot of the men in the room believe, that God is trying to work through them to accomplish something.
DonovanWhich is like the headiest thing you could possibly participate in.
HostOh, yeah.
DonovanBut at the same time, they're being served by these women who are, you know, all along there's the great establishing shots of, you know, their play too, with like, it's funny to see cardinals on a bus.
AdamYeah, yeah.
DonovanThat they still do have to indulge these modern things.
DonovanBut, you know, the women going early to cook all of these, they just do such a good job and they.
DonovanThere's two moments that drove home the power dynamic you're talking about, Donovan.
DonovanOne is when Cardinal Lawrence finds.
DonovanGoes into that office and pretty well insists that he talk to the Nigerian nun and pulls rank and does it.
DonovanThat's really the only time you see him throw his full weight around and you get a glimpse of like, oh, he could be kind of a monster if he wanted to be, that this position would allow him to do that.
DonovanBut he's not.
DonovanAnd he's actually the other brothers probably kind of think he's naive when he starts investigating Tremblay.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanLithgow's character.
DonovanAnd he's sending his assistants essentially out to investigate it.
DonovanIt's like.
DonovanIs he sending them into actual physical danger?
DonovanBecause these are very high stakes for these men.
DonovanA different movie that becomes like a high speed chase through Rome.
DonovanRight.
AdamFor sure.
HostExactly.
HostYeah.
HostThen there's Daime and he's one of the possibilities.
HostAnd it's.
HostHe's.
HostHe would be a great representation for the.
HostAs Pope because he would be the first black gentleman to be the Pope.
HostBut he's strictly anti homosexual.
HostAnd it.
HostSo it's like every one of them have this.
HostI said before mystery.
HostBut they all have this also negative component to their personality that's really hindering them.
HostWho do you want to end up with it.
HostThat's a little of what propels the action.
HostAs the film goes on.
HostYou notice that Ray finds Thomas Lawrence character has something weighing on him.
HostYou really.
HostYou see it in the opening scene because he tears up.
HostHe gives them one tear.
HostWeeping silently over the Pope's death.
HostBut it feels like more than just sadness.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanI mean, it's like you think they.
AdamWere getting it on.
HostWell, he breathes very heavily throughout the entire movie.
HostHis.
HostHis Thomas Lawrence character.
HostThat was a choice to have that audible breathing.
HostDid you.
HostDid no one notice this but me?
HostIt's like every scene.
AdamI don't think I noticed it.
HostHe sounded like Tony Soprano in everything.
DonovanThey did that and the other clever sound thing.
DonovanPure aside to what we're talking about.
DonovanBut did you notice how many.
DonovanHow much bird song there was?
HostYes, there was.
HostI did notice that.
HostAnd the.
HostYeah.
HostAnd the breathing.
HostI'm telling y'all, go back and watch it.
HostIt's the breathing.
DonovanBut the bird song is always somewhere else.
DonovanRight.
DonovanBecause they're sequestered and they do such a.
HostLike, it's always in the sister's room where they're looking at the computer too.
HostIt's really.
DonovanWell, there's that.
DonovanThe actual bird, but you can hear life happening outside of the buildings that they're in.
DonovanAnd obviously it really happens with the almost on the nose moment where the breeze blows through because the bomb has been.
DonovanYeah, the hole's been blown in the building.
HostYeah, that's.
AdamThat's the Holy Spirit.
HostBlaine, what explains Ray Fonz crying once more?
HostAnd the only time you see him crying is when the Pope dies and when he goes back into the room and he holds his glasses completely works.
AdamFor me as like this was an important relationship that he Lost.
HostYeah.
AdamAnd also, it seemed like.
AdamBrother, I don't.
AdamI'm not gonna express this well, but Brother, Father Cardinal Lawrence was really, like, kind of upset and disturbed by the unromantic practicalities of being a religion in the world.
AdamLike, for me, right.
AdamLike, I'm involved with my church and, you know, we are sort of.
AdamYou know, I go to church for many of the same reasons that I read books and watch movies and appreciate art.
AdamBut, like, at the end of the day, like, also, we have to, like, keep the lights on.
AdamYou know, like, people.
AdamPeople fight over money.
HostIt's.
AdamIt's grubby.
AdamIt's not.
AdamThis isn't money, but, you know, this is power.
AdamYou know, people get mad.
AdamPeople.
AdamIt's very unromantic.
AdamAnd like, Father.
AdamFather Lawrence is almost like.
AdamIt's a.
AdamIt's a.
AdamIt's upsetting to him that he's been told that he's going to be the manager, that these spiritual things are maybe for other people.
AdamHe's just gonna.
AdamHe's just good.
AdamHe's good at spreadsheets, basically, which was.
DonovanInteresting because you don't.
DonovanYou don't fall backwards into being a cardinal.
DonovanLike, how has he not had this crisis before this point?
HostI find it striking how much the film mirrors our own conversations as a public.
HostWhen we're electing officials.
DonovanYeah, the easy read on this, because it came out, I think, two or three weeks before the November election is which.
DonovanI reject that read on the movie.
DonovanI don't.
DonovanYou know, it's a German director, a British writer.
DonovanIt's clearly an international film.
DonovanObviously, American elections have international importance, but this is the conversation that's kind of endless, right.
DonovanLike the.
DonovanThe conservative impulse of, there's real danger.
DonovanLet's circle the wagons.
DonovanAnd I've, in my reading, people said in the book, Tedesco gives that speech at the end, and if he just cut himself off, he probably would have been elected Pope.
DonovanBut he liked the sound of his own voice too much.
AdamYeah, I could see that with that character.
AdamYou know, honestly, it's great to finally see a film that takes a strong stance and the perfidiousness of Italians.
DonovanThis.
AdamAnd Daisy Miller, all of.
HostTo me, it's a movie about how what secrets have more weight than the other secret.
HostEveryone has their own.
HostBut then you end up with Benitez getting elected.
HostAnd I suppose we can go ahead and get into this ending.
HostIt's the one that's driven all of the right wing crazy, which, of course, easily avoided because I never look at that stuff.
HostBut apparently there's so much online from Catholics and right wing who keeps saying that this movie had an agenda.
HostWhich I would like to say, if they're listening, you're a fucking idiot.
HostBecause that's not a valid complaint.
HostEvery movie ever made has an agenda.
AdamYeah, yeah, I would agree with that, Blaine.
AdamIt's like even Happy Gilmore.
HostI'm sorry, have you seen maybe the wizard of Oz or.
HostEvery movie's got an agenda.
HostSo that's an invalid complaint.
HostSo, yeah, you get this idea that Benitez has gone to Geneva.
HostAnd then when they say it wasn't a hospital, it was a clinic, of course, my mind, My idiot mind goes, oh, he's addicted.
HostHe's got a.
HostHe's got a cocaine addiction.
HostHe went to a clinic, a rehab facility.
HostBut no, he went to Geneva not for an illness, but for a laparoscopic hysterectomy.
HostAnd for those who don't know, that's a.
HostIt can be a gender affirming operation.
HostIt helps a person transitioning to become a man.
HostIt can be that Benitez says he did not accept the operation, so he still has the uterus and ovaries.
HostI think.
AdamYes.
HostIt just flips the entire way you see the.
HostThe movie and your mind goes back to the beginning and put places, everything in order.
HostWell done.
HostYou know, you.
HostYou applaud it for where it got you there.
HostAnd it did so without pulling the rug out from under you.
DonovanAnd it did so to me, people that are.
DonovanI think back to George W.
DonovanSaying, I don't do nuance, you know, like.
HostLike, we couldn't tell.
DonovanLike, if you're upset with this, someone having an actual medical condition that is free of identity politics and sexuality in 2025, to me, is a callback to the idea of certainty that they're playing with the whole time.
HostRight.
HostYes.
HostIt's wonderfully done.
HostYes.
DonovanAnd I perfectly fit.
DonovanI just don't think.
DonovanIf that upsets you so much, I don't really.
DonovanI don't know.
DonovanI'm sure there are also a lot of Catholics who would be upset by the idea of, like, the three young women at the end who appear to be in high spirits walking across that courtyard, being the parting shot as, like, this is the future, you know, and there are people who wouldn't like that so much less someone with complicated gender would.
DonovanWould be very problematic to them.
DonovanSo it's.
DonovanI just.
DonovanThe outrage over it.
DonovanIt was fun to go through.
DonovanPeople who saw it in theaters, they were surprised by how reactive the audience around them was to things.
DonovanWho.
DonovanYou know, they talked about people standing up and leaving at that point.
DonovanWhich is comical because there were like four minutes left in the movie.
HostYeah, there's.
AdamIf that.
DonovanYeah.
DonovanBut also, I don't understand.
DonovanCulture war has a concept.
HostSo some.
HostYeah.
AdamAnd I'll agree, like, yes, it had an agenda.
AdamAs Blaine said, every movie ever has an agenda.
AdamRight.
AdamLike, it has an agenda.
AdamIt has a point of view.
AdamAnd I did.
AdamAnd it was like.
AdamIt was a little on the nose.
AdamRight.
AdamBut like, we.
HostThe.
AdamThe kind of reference to.
AdamRight to Pentecost with the wind blowing through.
AdamAnd then Lawrence is kind of inspired to cast his vote and this thing happens.
AdamAnd I kind of like, at least from the perspective of my faith, it made me think exactly of St.
AdamPaul when he's like, you know, there's no longer male or female.
AdamLike, there's nothing.
AdamThere's just people in Christ.
AdamReally.
AdamCompletely.
AdamLike, blows up all the identities that we have.
AdamAnd he's like, God's going to do this new thing.
AdamAnd so there's.
AdamAnd like.
AdamAnd you don't understand it because nobody can.
AdamAnd I kind of like that where it's like, oh, no, this is going to be the new thing.
AdamLike the things that we thought we knew.
AdamOld broken.
AdamTo quote our good friend Lee, old broken things are fixed.
HostIt also says to me that nothing matters with dogma.
HostThis is the way it's got to be.
HostSo if Benitez is the kind, gentle, wonderful soul who will lead us into the new century wonderfully and pleasantly, that doesn't matter because, yeah, he didn't have the surgery or how he was born.
HostYou got to be dogmatic.
AdamYeah.
AdamThere's a real.
AdamThere's a really bad side to it where we have.
AdamWe.
AdamWe have reimposed all of these strictures that we're told we're free from.
HostYeah.
DonovanBut at the same time, the movie, you know, I remember in maybe the 2000, 2005.
DonovanRight.
DonovanPeople election after John Paul II.
AdamYeah.
DonovanPeople talking about, you know, why.
DonovanWhy is the church.
DonovanWhy haven't they elected anybody?
DonovanOr where are these issues going to come up?
DonovanBlah, blah, blah.
DonovanAnd a representative said, the Catholic Church thinks in centuries, not months or decades or any of these things.
DonovanNot in a way that makes it unreactive to, I don't know, pedophiles being amongst their ranks.
DonovanSo there's not great aspects to that.
DonovanBut.
DonovanBut I think in this.
DonovanIt did a great job showing, like, this is this institution full of mystery and tradition.
DonovanAnd all of these things, and you're.
DonovanYou're shown that these are not inherently bad things before the progressive conclusion, I think.
HostYeah.
DonovanAnd you're even.
DonovanTo go back to Tedesco's little speech, you're kind of sympathetic with him for a second, and you think, oh, this is how fascism happens, because these people still have dust on their clothes from a suicide bomber.
HostWell, they do let Tedesco be the coolest of the bunch when he hits the vape.
DonovanThat was hilarious.
AdamI love that.
AdamThat was so good.
HostHe does hit a vape right in the middle of proceedings.
AdamThat was so funny, man.
HostIt is.
HostThat scene's worth repeating.
DonovanIs Rossellini in the movie after she does her curtsy and walks out?
HostNope.
DonovanThat's her mic drop, right?
HostThat's it.
HostYes.
HostYes.
DonovanFantastic.
HostYeah.
HostYes.
HostExcellent use of her and excellent use of her decision making to.
HostTo do this, although I didn't know she was retired, but.
HostYeah.
HostOne reason I did love the movie, though, is that Megyn Kelly, who's really into the notion that the letter Y may certainly be a vowel, she.
HostShe claims the movie embarrasses Catholics.
HostShe said a film like this would never be made about Muslims or Islam because she.
HostI guess she suddenly cares about Islamic religions.
DonovanWhy?
HostI guess because they.
HostI don't know.
HostShe didn't say why.
HostShe just says that that would never happen.
DonovanAnd that was an attack on the.
HostFilmmakers on the film having an agenda.
HostAn agenda to embarrass Catholics.
DonovanI think the Catholics came out looking pretty good in this movie.
AdamI.
AdamI would suggest Megyn Kelly, like, watch anything by Abbas Kirastami from Iran, who is not necessarily making a movie about, like, choosing a next religious figure, but it's like, is making movies about Muslims very much in conversation with Muslim life.
AdamAnd they're beautiful.
AdamAnd they're beautiful.
AdamDonovan, he's great.
AdamAnd also, he kind of went to jail for it.
DonovanI have bad news, Donovan.
DonovanShe.
DonovanShe's not gonna.
AdamShe's not going to.
HostShe's not going to.
HostShe listens to this podcast regularly, but she won't.
AdamNobody with those kinds of takes is engaging with it.
AdamRight?
AdamYou're just.
HostNo, it's just that.
HostNo, she just sees the black.
HostShe sees the news or.
HostOr the reactions.
AdamIt's that.
AdamJust add water.
AdamOutrage.
HostOh, yeah.
HostOh, yeah, yeah.
HostNo, everything is very economical almost to a fault when it comes to Benitez's election.
HostI felt like that just happened in a snap of the fingers.
HostAgain, it could be my fault.
HostI could have been taking a note at that moment and just looked up and like, whoa, he's elected suddenly.
AdamI mean, there's a little bit of, like, he gave a great speech, and then they're like this, let's make this man.
HostYeah, he did.
HostYeah.
HostIt happened pretty quickly.
HostThat's the only thing I docked it for.
HostI told you earlier I would tell you.
AdamIt's fine.
AdamYeah, I agree.
AdamI agree with you, Blaine.
AdamAnd that's also fine.
DonovanTo me, that was the one.
DonovanThe speed with which that happened.
DonovanAnd then, you know, they rush him into that side room, the famous room where they dress him and all this stuff and.
HostThat's right.
HostYes.
DonovanLawrence bust in.
DonovanThat.
DonovanAll of that did feel a little out of step with the rest of the pacing.
DonovanIt did a little rushed, a little tacked on.
HostI'm glad y'all felt that, too, because I was worried I missed something.
DonovanI liked the way that they revealed that he had won.
DonovanWhere you're thinking, people start clapping and Lawrence stands up and it's.
DonovanIs he about to accept their.
DonovanTheir vote?
DonovanAnd then he begins clapping and looking along with everybody else.
DonovanI thought that was great.
DonovanBut the.
DonovanThe way they arrived, especially to be so exact about a lot of the traditions.
DonovanAnd then, like Donovan said, let's make this man our leader.
DonovanEven though they have no concept of his religious politics, you know, his theology.
AdamIt just seems a little.
AdamYou don't even know.
AdamI mean, he gave a great speech, and I agree with it.
AdamBut, yeah, like, he's.
AdamHe's been.
AdamFor.
AdamFor good reasons, but he's been a cardinal in secret.
AdamRight?
DonovanYeah.
AdamSo you, like, sort of know about his career, but, like, you don't know about him as a leader, as an administrator, the outsider, or.
AdamOr pastorally.
AdamRight.
AdamLike, you don't know what his pastoral care is going to be like.
HostI think he got over the top when he said that he wanted the Gulf of Mexico to be the Gulf of America.
DonovanYou beat me to it.
DonovanI was about to say he said he likes popes that don't die.
DonovanThat's what got him.
HostThey don't get captured.
DonovanYeah.
HostAll right, gentlemen, we're going to wrap it there and hope you enjoyed our conversation and dissection of these three movies.
HostIt's rare we did three movies, and even more rare that we do two that weren't streaming yet.
HostShamala is open to doing a trilogy of Dylan movies, he said this week.
DonovanHas he really said that?
HostYeah, he really said it.
AdamThey should do this like Boyhood, where it's like they wait, they just film like 45 year old Timothee Chalamet.
AdamAnd then like they wait 30 years and it's like 75 year old.
DonovanI think that's a great idea.
HostHe's the host of SNL this weekend.
HostHe's also performing.
DonovanAnd is he gonna do Dylan songs?
HostDon't know.
HostWe haven't heard.
DonovanWhat if he brings Bob out?
HostGeez, come on.
DonovanI feel like that's not beyond possibility at this.
HostIt's not beyond possibility, but no one would know, including Timothy Chamon.
HostUp until five minutes, he just show.
DonovanAnd then, you know.
DonovanCan.
DonovanCan Timothy change keys?
DonovanThat's important.
HostProbably.
HostHey, man, I'm telling you, when he played gospel plow or like fixing to die, you know, he went in as Dylan.
HostI was like, oh, yeah, he took his lessons.
DonovanNo, it was good.
HostWhere they dropped D string and was running on down it.
DonovanOh yeah.
AdamI.
AdamI hope that his monologue this week is just his thoughts about the College Football Playoff.
HostThat would be cool too, because I liked him on game day.
HostI like.
DonovanI've always, like, what era of.
DonovanI feel like everybody should go if they made a film about a specific era of Dylan.
DonovanWhat are you going with?
DonovanI already have my answer.
HostDude, you got to hit me with that.
HostReligious era.
HostWhat the was happening.
HostOh, yeah.
DonovanAction then.
AdamYeah, that's my answer too, Blaine.
DonovanThey would really.
AdamThat would.
AdamThat's fascinating.
HostLike, is he doing cocaine and worshiping God or is he like really into it?
HostLike not drinking, not doing nothing.
HostI'm with God.
HostI really want to know.
DonovanHe was pretty angry at his ex wife for not letting him be a Christian when he wrote the lyrics.
DonovanSo maybe some of that in there.
HostWow.
HostYeah.
HostSo is that your era, Adam?
DonovanNo, I would have him and it would exclusively be him and Lanois riding around New Orleans.
HostI mean, just hijinks.
DonovanYeah, hijinks in New Orleans.
DonovanThat's it.
AdamI'd watch it for the three of us.
HostI'm Blaine and we will.
HostWe're on our weekly bullshit.
HostThanks for listening.
HostTalk to you next Tuesday.