Comfort Shows and TV That Says Something: 'Rooster,' 'Lord of the Flies,' and 'Widow's Bay'

[00:00:00] Hello, welcome to Taking It Down, the TV podcast for working class people from the Alabama Take. On this week's episode, all three hosts are back and we're going to be talking about the entirety of HBO series, Rooster, the Netflix miniseries, Lord of the Flies, all of those that have aired, and Apple TV's Widow's Bay will also be a topic of discussion. Of course, we break things up into non-spoilers and then spoilers. So stay on board.

[00:00:30] Let's get the host in here and start talking. I'll better take projection. Here they are joining me, as promised. It's Sir Adam and Donovan. Adam fresh off a tour of the UK with his duo sister Ray Davies. He wasn't knighted though, to my knowledge. To your knowledge. You haven't shared that with me.

[00:00:57] There'll be an announcement. These things take time, so you know, you gotta go through the proper channels. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. That would be cool if you got knighted. If you... No, they can't knight a non-citizen, can they? That's why it would be so cool.

[00:01:14] Well, before we get into shows proper, I'll mention... I've seen the first two episodes of Margot's Got Money Troubles. It's not bad, seems like. It's kind of hard to gauge right now. I do think it's doing a really good job of that immediate time after a baby comes home. Albeit, it's short-lived, because the episodes are only 35 minutes, so you don't get the full immersive experience. Of having a newborn in your house. Yeah, but they come close.

[00:01:42] Do you have to watch the episodes at 2.30 in the morning? It would help. That's so funny you mention that. The most recent episode I watched involved at 2.30 in the morning to the exact moment. Oh, wow. Moment. The appearance of Nick Offerman is so welcome. He shows up. Elle Fanning's doing a really good job playing a very particular kind of mother. Right now I can recommend it, especially for its time. 35 minutes each. It's not too bad.

[00:02:10] Will it turn into something great? I don't know. I don't know. It's probably going to turn into something good. But that's what I can say so far, having only me having watched it. But we'll get into some more discussion stuff here. Let's go with HBO's Rooster. We've got Steve Carell, Charlie Clive, Daniel Deadweiler, Phil Dunster, and John C. McGinley all in Rooster.

[00:02:34] It's ended its first season. That's where Carell's author Greg Russo comes to a lovely, picturesque New England college campus to teach. And it's not a surprise that it's the same college his daughter teaches at, as well as his son-in-law when he gets there. And this first season's done. So what do you guys make of it as a whole now that you've got ten episodes under your belt?

[00:02:57] As a New Englander myself, it is so fascinating that we have two shows that 100% capture life in New England. Rooster and Widow's Bay, like watching a documentary. Just true to life. True to life. My everyday is like something out of one of those two shows. Everyday you're drinking hot chocolate. I have a very important follow-up question about daily routine though. Do you have one of those bikes?

[00:03:26] No, no. I have my, I just have a hybrid. Not like hybrid road mountain, not elect, not e-bike. That's good enough for me. I feel like you're missing out on a crucial part of New England living according to this program. I could roll around going, e-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne.

[00:03:55] But then it did what most of his shows do. It slumped a little. I would say it even got a little stale a couple episodes in the middle, despite Steve Carell doing a killer performance. Really, really great, I thought. Every time he was on screen, that was really good. And then other things lagged. I thought it was great throughout. Yeah? Yeah. This was like such a warm hug of a program, but it maintained its, we talked about this, what feels like a lifetime ago, before I left.

[00:04:24] A month ago. Sometimes a warm hug show does not necessarily include great performances, but this one does. It's kind of got it all. You know, smart writing, good performances, and the general vibe of the thing is just like a warm embrace. I'm bringing to the table my thesis that I should have just written this article, but I didn't. I still compiled it, what I'm going to use today. And it has to do with comfort watches.

[00:04:53] They don't challenge the status quo of TV or life. And they don't really push you to think or not bumping up against any boundaries. And that's fine. You know, we have those shows. That's what they're for. But I think if it's going to be that, it needs to be really funny. And this one had moments. But in comparison to say, the rise and fall, the fall and rise of Reggie Dinkins, it didn't have the laugh per minute.

[00:05:23] It's one of those shows where it's kind of funnier after you've watched it than in the moment of watching it. That happens a lot with me. I don't know if that happens a lot with our listeners, but that's the way I do it. I will think of something down the road and laugh. Whereas you have something like the really high version of this is Arrested Development, where you laugh in the moment and then laugh days later. Yeah, but I would argue pretty strongly that Arrested Development is not a comfort show. It is for me. It's not.

[00:05:52] It was more confrontational in its comedy, I think. Okay. I haven't really thought about if it's a comfort show or not. I was just, I was mainly thinking about a lot of Lawrence's shows and then comparing it to something I find just funny as hell. Like, it's always sunny or something like that. Well, that's definitely not a comfort show, right? I mean, it is in a way. I mean, I laugh my ass off and that's comforting. I don't know.

[00:06:17] But it's tough to say though, because if you, if you're talking about always sunny and Arrested Development, they kind of like redefine the culture and how we consume TV in a lot of ways. It's, they say a lot of things in those shows that at the time were not, are still not appropriate to say. They can't even air an episode. Yeah. It's always, yeah. I mean, there's a, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:06:42] And there, you know, there's a, there, like Bill Lawrence shows, I think I'm confident in saying Bill Lawrence shows are not usually a broad indictment of American society in the way that Arrested Development and It's Always Sunny are. That is true. I guess it, it, it strips away one of my aspects of comfort watch, which was, it won't push up against any boundaries. And I think that that's exactly what Arrested Development and It's Always Sunny did.

[00:07:11] Although it is kind of funny. I do think this one built with some of its jokes and one of the jokes that I wasn't sure if I liked at the beginning, but towards the end is he's accidentally pushing up against boundaries. So he just like a smash says something and smash cut to like the disciplinary. Uh huh. That was a good, that was a good ongoing joke. Yeah. That, that built and built and that was funny, but it's like, the joke is also like, you're not, I think you're right, Blaine. Like, this is not really going to make you uncomfortable.

[00:07:41] We're not going to have like a real, real big talk about this. Not that I did it, but that, I mean, that sounds so dismissive. Like, uh, cause I think this show, it's not wanting to do those things and that is okay. And that is okay. Yes. I agree with that. You have to ask what value, cause I think there's comfort shows where there are fairly one dimensional characters moving through space where it's,

[00:08:08] it's like, it's just supposed to be kind of funny and you kind of know what's going to happen and it, it makes your half hour better. Whereas this one was comforting and was funny, but it also involved people trying to figure themselves out in pretty well-written ways. A little bit more dynamic of characterization. Yeah.

[00:08:29] And maybe willing to be uncomfortable in their self-discovery, even though things kind of end like you want them to, if that makes sense. Yes, it does. I agree with that. Yeah. And I'm also going to continue to compare it to other Lawrence shows. I think his shows are shows where the actors carry the load. I'm thinking, Carell and Deadwiler here. I'm thinking Jessica Williams and Harrison Ford. I'm thinking Vince Vaughn.

[00:08:58] I'm thinking, uh, Jason Sudeikis. I haven't watched Scrubs, as you guys know, but I'm, I wouldn't doubt if, uh, you know, like John C. McGinley sort of carried that show or, or, uh, the two leads, Zach Braff. And I think all the primaries and Scrubs carried, but I'm not carried is a strong word because they use the ensemble so well.

[00:09:19] I think that he or somebody involved with him is really good at matching characters with, or actors with roles and characters. Yes. He's got, he's somebody out there is a genius. I'm assuming it's him, is a genius. I say they do that 85% of the time. And I think that the other 15 aren't quite there.

[00:09:42] I just think that, uh, Charlie Clive, maybe the word miscast is too strong, but I could picture other actors in that role. I thought she was great. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe because I have not seen her in things before. Neither have I. That works sometimes, you know, like if you have somebody who's so famous, like a Steve Carell and other people on the show, her asking her to carry some weight is, it works.

[00:10:12] My last, it's not a gripe. My last piece of my thesis is that Lawrence's shows rely heavily on its soundtrack for emotional punches. So if there's an open. Absolutely. He likes a good, likes a good soundtrack. Yeah. Like here they use the fairest of the seasons and I wasn't sure if that was supposed to be ironic or a moment of reflective joy of some sort.

[00:10:38] And I'm sure you'll recall, we don't have to get into it because of spoilers, but you know, Nico's the version of the fairest of the seasons. Uh huh. That was great. I mean, I love the song and when it comes on, you immediately go somewhere. You go where Wes Anderson is taking you. Yes, exactly right. It's almost a cheat because he's, you're so familiar with these songs at other places. It's like you look down and you think, why am I wearing a sweater? Right. Why is it a perfectly comfortable 58 degrees right now? Ooh, feels so cozy.

[00:11:06] You know who does all the music or usually chooses his music? Yes. His wife. And here he's got Michael Stapp singing the theme song. I mean, first song he's done in three or four years. His wife usually makes it happen. As I say, Michael Stapp's not an easy guy to get, so clearly they...

[00:11:22] I just think that, that Lawrence's shows tend to get stuck in a dramedy, whereas, where they're not complete drama or comedy and that's what that word means, but it would be nice if they could make me really, really laugh or make me really, really cry or feel, you know, something. They never become one thing at any moment. They have great moments like a joke about the tooth. I still laugh at in Rooster and they're wonderful standalones, especially a couple days later.

[00:11:52] But I just don't think his shows generally coalesce into a great thing. Although I think Rooster is as good as Lawrence probably gets. I think Bad Monkey may be his best show yet. That one was pretty good. And it was pretty good. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't put it in the realm of great, but pretty good. A lot of that may have had to do with Vince Vaughn being perfectly fast, like you said. Yeah. Rooster is pretty good too, though. Yeah.

[00:12:21] Corrello is... Yeah. I think that may be the reason. There's some other good things, but you guys remember the joke about the tooth, right? Yeah. I won't get into any more here. Interesting stuff. So you guys thought as a whole it was good first season? Yeah. I think thumbs up, good ensemble cast. Good job at making the... Like, the plot is actually like, if you really sit down and think about it, it's really just kind of like melodrama.

[00:12:49] But I think that the writers and the actors did such a good job that that's... By the end of it, you're like, yeah, I know it's... None of this is groundbreaking, but you know, you're like interested. You want to see what's happening to these characters. Yeah, I have a few specifics I'll mention in spoilers, just in case anyone's listening hasn't seen it. We'll move into a series that definitely knows it's not a comedy. Lord of the Flies on Netflix. I was cracking up. You were... I mean, just laugh a minute.

[00:13:18] It's based off the book of the same name. If you've read the book... Adam, have you read the book? You know, I never have. Okay, really? Despite it being such a linchpin of a... Somebody says there's a real Lord of the Flies situation out there. You know, it's like, we know what that means as a shorthand. Yeah, but I mean... I assumed you could not get a high school diploma without having read Lord of the Flies. Me too. That's where I read it. I think it was 12th grade year. This is how it landed in my curriculum in my days. And I did read it then and I remember liking it a lot.

[00:13:47] And I went back to it recently and did not like it a lot. Huh. Pretty stale read, honestly. Is this like a Holden Caulfield situation? That's a good question. That's a good question. And I don't think it's that at all. It's... The language is just so dated and stiff. Gotcha. I haven't read it since high school, so I can't... It was good in high school. I don't think I have. Yeah, I liked it in high school. My wife despised it, so that was the topic of conversation.

[00:14:15] That might be how I feel about it now. Did you find it weird that this adaptation just had zero mention of Frodo, Sam, Gollum? You're... I'm baffled. You are thinking of a different lord. Oh. Well, there wasn't even a ring in this one, so I don't know. Maybe that's why they changed the title. There were some flies, which I was like, truth in advertising. Yeah. That's great. That's good. I brought the flies in for this production.

[00:14:44] If you tell me there's gonna be a lord of some flies, I would like to see some flies. Donovan, you and I have seen it. What did you think of the adaptation? Actually, very, very high on it. Yeah. I thought you were from our... I thought it was fantastic. Okay. Have you seen the 1990 or 91 film? I haven't. This has somehow escaped me. I have never seen... Aren't there two? There is an old one, even older. There's an old one. Okay, no. Have not seen...

[00:15:13] I've only ever read the book and watched the Simpsons episode. That's fine. I think that works perfectly well. This is a Netflix miniseries and it was only four episodes long, which honestly, that felt right. It felt really right amount of time. And I think my complaint is that it could have been five and made the episodes shorter. Maybe. Maybe. Find a different breaking point in some of this text?

[00:15:43] Maybe. I actually literally thought to myself, like, this is really well-paced. After coming... After figuring... So the first episode, I wouldn't say it's slow, but it is kind of slower. Yeah. That was my issue. But kind of once I got into the rhythm, I was like, this is actually fantastically paced because at no point am I bored. I found it odd that no critics talked about its pacing. I had trouble with that pacing.

[00:16:09] It took me the second episode a few minutes into it where I settled into it. I think by the end of the first I was in it and then just the... I think it worked really well for the series. And I think the pacing, they used it really well and smartly to give this underlying sense of eeriness as well where you'll just kind of like linger on something or something will change and you're just kind of like, huh. Yeah.

[00:16:37] That's not supposed to do that, right? They used it really thoughtfully, I think. They're really faithful to the book. I don't... If you've read the book, I don't think we could spoil anything. No, I don't think so. I think there's only one thing... If I... Like I said, it's been a long time. I think there's one thing that we get in the context of the book that the boys don't get. Yes. Which is something that the narrator kind of tell... Like the... Not narrator, but like the author sort of...

[00:17:05] We have more knowledge about something than the boys. At least one thing. I've got a plan to talk about. We'll talk about it in a little bit. Yeah, but... Pretty faithful to the book as I remember. Although... I thought that it was doing new things too with... It's funny how they were able to do that yet still hew so close to the narrative. And they really... I don't think this is a huge spoiler. We do see...

[00:17:33] Unlike the book which takes place on the island, we do see into the past of some of the kids' lives and I think that was actually done and used really well. They had used it really sparingly. That's why it was so well. It was so brief. Yep. That did not overstay its welcome. I'm pretty much with you. I think the pacing of that first episode really gave me a hard time to wrestle with how I felt about it as a whole. Yeah.

[00:18:01] I've got a joke that I've been thinking of. Well, it might be for spoilers, but I'm so excited to say it. Ever since I watched the first episode, I'm like, this is what I'm saying on Sunday. This is gonna be my joke. Okay, don't forget it. It's not gonna be that good. I don't wanna build it up. I'm just waiting to say it. We're gonna go into Apple TV. We're gonna continue with the series Widow's Bay stars Matthew Rhys as the mayor of a New England town with some mysteries.

[00:18:28] He wants tourists to come to his lovely New England island that may or may not be happening. Donald, you said last week that you would need to see more in order to get a feel for if this show's good. I love that. I still don't know if it's good, but I was looking forward to watching it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've seen the fourth episode now. Still? Yes. I still think it's good. I don't think it's gone off the rails. Uh...

[00:18:56] It's funny, you know, like, we were talking about the concept of a comfort watch. And this isn't exactly that, but it's like Matthew Rhys, Steven Root, some dry humor, weird folk horror stuff. Big old folk horror, Adam. I'm ready. I'm sleeping with a baby after watching that. Yeah. Ray's there. Yes. Video view, so the eye breath. Adam, you... That aspect I think you'd enjoy a lot. They're on an island, you say? Yeah.

[00:19:26] It's there. It's not. Is there a causeway? No, it's completely cut off. Ferry. Ferry only. It's really far out from the land. It's like 40 miles. 45 miles. It's like, that's crazy far out. That is, isn't it? That's like its own country. It is. It's like an Ireland or something. Exactly. It's hard to think of. I mean, you know, for a simple mind. I mean, it's almost to Ireland, isn't it? Practically. It's off the coast of North America, up there.

[00:19:55] It's a cool show. I'm with Donovan. You know, I enjoy it. I really look forward to seeing it. But I think I can take a stand and say, it's pretty good. I think it's good. And I'll tell you why on the spoilers. I think it's good. This past episode too, there was a lot of, not a lot, but it was like, I kind of see what you're doing, but I think you're doing it very well. Yeah. And also I like it, so. I agree with that. You know? They're doing it very well. I thought that this episode was a good account of loneliness of the island and loneliness of disregard.

[00:20:26] It was, one of the things, and I think you brought this up, Blaine, when you mentioned that this show will actually let, it'll kind of pause on the characters and give them a moment to breathe. There's some real pathos. And I felt like this episode actually did a good job of taking a character who I just thought was funny and showing a different light. And then Matthew Reese is, of course, you know, he's, he's always. He should have, he should be getting paid more than he does.

[00:20:54] Cause he always seems like, like he is just like a believable human being in this crazy situation. Yeah. All right. Well, let's do this. Let's take a break. And on the other side, we'll start with rooster for spoilers and continue in the order. We brought it up again. Social media has made it nearly impossible for you to see all that you followed or liked, but that's not the case with Alabama take. Now you can subscribe to the newsletter, which you'll receive almost weekly and features

[00:21:22] a quirky story as well as a recap of all that's happened on the site and the podcast. While you wait for today's podcast episode of taking it down to return, hit up the show notes and subscribe to the newsletter. Am I a hater? Well, I alluded to it non spoilers, but we'll get specific here. Rooster is not a great show. It's a good show. My compadres can take it from here. It's the HBO show.

[00:21:51] This is not the unified opinion. It's not the unified opinion. No, I'm giving you the floor now. I thought it was great at what it set out to do. Okay. I do think I might be more on that. This, this sounds like hemming and hawing, but more on the Blaine side of things where I'm like, I think that this show for giving it a grade is a B plus and a B plus is being great at what you set out to do. Maybe you're not Mad Men, which is transcending its, its genre, right?

[00:22:18] But that is a ridiculous standard to hold most things to. I think that if I were grading, I would get to the end and say, this is realistically a B plus, but think about all the heart that this was put into this paper. And then I would bump it up to an A minus. I like that. That professor teacher mentality that works perfectly for the show. So this was really a, what's his name? This is really a Tommy, right? Like, yeah, he's, he's lying. He's cutting classes, but by God, the boy, the heart in that boy.

[00:22:48] That's a good one. Yeah. I'm a very appreciative that we don't seem to be getting stuck in the sunny Archie Katie triangle. That would have, I think that would have anchored the show and, uh, caused it not to move. A lot of reviews mentioned that, that they were pleasantly surprised that they broke that triangle before ending the season. And I, I agree with you and those reviews that yeah, just assuming it sticks.

[00:23:17] And I'll say why I don't think Sonny's been characterized very well, nor has Katie a lot. She just came off kind of whiny and not able to do much for herself. Probably for a reason. The whole back half of that, it, her not being able to do for herself is why Greg probably feels like he must and her mother. And then the cycle continues. Right. And then it continues. But Sonny should have had more.

[00:23:44] Maybe if she was to be a primary character in this triangle for as long as it did last. Maybe if it went through the sea, I'll, I'll agree with you, Blaine, that Sonny of the main characters is probably, well, like that Archie's not super fleshed out, but, um, he's so superficial. You don't really need to know anything else about him. Yeah, I think that is his fleshing out. He's just, uh, self-centered. Right? So, I mean, you don't, you, you do think that like they didn't give her nothing to do.

[00:24:10] And I thought the character, uh, the actress, the actor is good, but, um, maybe that's part of the reason that, you know, like they're like, it's not lasting for more than one season. We don't, we don't need to explore her yet. Or maybe that's a future season where she really gets like her episode. She also, the way that she spoke was so, uh, almost, yeah, robotic at times. It was, it's odd, an odd performance.

[00:24:36] But still she, I think maybe it was almost worth the whole thing for her, uh, parting shot, which was you're making a mistake. You're going to realize that whatever the, and it was beyond just like a stilted lover kind of, you're making a big mistake. It was like, you're choosing the wrong path. Tough. Yes. Tough. She dropped the hammer there. The love triangle we want and need though is Greg, Dylan, and Crystal. Oh, I thought it was, let's just be honest.

[00:25:06] I thought it was, um, Greg, Walter, and Crystal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Walter definitely has a, uh, man crush on Greg. There's no doubt about that. I. The bit where he is like, you have to shut the door so that I can take the lock off. That was pretty good. It was so good. How he kept calling that their special door was pretty funny.

[00:25:33] But yeah, if they would have kept with the, and who's to say they want next season? If they kept with the Archie, Katie and Sonny stuff, I'm not sure if it wouldn't have been kind of like shrinking where the first two seasons were the characters kind of doing the same thing several times going in circles. Well, I mean, they're going to have to coexist in some way. One would think. Agreed. But hopefully their story isn't Archie. I want you this week. Archie. I don't want you this week. Yeah, that would get, that would get old really fast. Yeah.

[00:26:02] Should we, is this where we bring up Rory Scovell as Donnie? We finally get his name in the last three episodes. Oh, Officer Donnie. Oh man. He was someone I wasn't sure if I was going to like after the first episode and just consistently hilarious throughout. Like the gun gag somehow never got old. That was a good gag. It's, it's up there with the vroom vroom of the bicycle. Just the constant, like the, I know it's not from these last episodes, like with the bit where he's like left it at the gun range.

[00:26:32] Best place to leave a gun. It's like, it's like. Doesn't he leave it at the donut shop? He leaves. Like, why are you taking your gun out at the donut shop? It almost, not quite, but it almost reminded me of the Sonny joke where Frank is just like using his gun to like open his, like a can of soda and things like that. Like it's being so egregiously misused. It's funny. The finale set up Greg's wife, ex-wife, excuse me, to be a much bigger character going forward.

[00:27:01] Connie Brennan plays Elizabeth, his ex-wife. Tell me your thoughts on her and her character. I've seen some mixed ideas about her and feelings about her as a character. Well, she's, she's Greg's Archie, right? She's a little older, maybe a little more experienced, but she kind of, by her own admissions, she does what she wants to do. Where Archie also is a I do what I want to do person. I find that so interesting.

[00:27:31] You and other writers and critics have said basically that, that she's to be Greg's version of Archie, but I, I know that logically, but I never felt it. Huh. She never, in fact, she never felt like a danger or a bother until that last bit where Walt says, I'm not going to be president and we're, you know, my next semester will be turning over the reins to her. And that's when it hit me.

[00:28:01] Finally, I was like, oh gosh, she is a little more ruthless than maybe I would have suspected. I think we're only shown the fallout of her actions until that point. Like she hasn't really done anything. True. And even when she is kind of a jerk, it's also kind of funny. You know, like when she leaves breakfast early and she's like, oh no, we helped our child and like, yeah, right. Yeah. It's played for comedy. Yeah. Like it's, it's all going to be fine.

[00:28:26] But here now she has real life consequences and is playing that off of a guy who like you like, but he's also pretty intense. You know, John McGinley plays, plays his character is like, he plays everybody pretty intense, but you know, early in the show, I think Donovan, you pointed out maybe like that they, maybe we're going to play his out of touch with modern politics for laughs, but in the way he immediately

[00:28:56] becomes like sympathetic for, and even has to stand up to his friend, right. To say like, we have to be flexible. Yes. Yeah. So he, I don't know. That was a good bait and switch that they made you like him slowly. And then boom. Yoink them away from us. Yeah. Was it the use of the actor, like, you know, this actor and we're going to actually use him a little differently as a surprise? Um, I don't, I mean, I think they set them up early on.

[00:29:26] They really only make those kinds of jokes about like, oh, I don't remember what he says, but like, can't say that anymore. That kind of thing. And you're like, if it's 10, if it's 10 episodes of this, that would get very tiresome, but it wasn't that. I gotcha. You know, what actually worked for me with, um, thinking of, of as not a threat exactly, but, or Beth, I should say, not a threat, but like, I wasn't surprised was just how

[00:29:52] much Steve Carell played Greg really having trouble. Like she obviously deeply hurt this person and doesn't seem to be too apologetic about it. And I'm like, that's where I'm like, yeah, I bought that. I, I buy, not as a villain, but like, that's why she's, I think she's Archie. His Archie. I think that for me, Greg has to dislike her more in order for me to buy that she's an antagonist.

[00:30:22] I think that that just says a lot about him though. Right? Yes. He's a sweet, I think so. He's just too, too kind. And usually anything that he does that may hurt others is not, it's because he like, doesn't want to go do something. Or maybe she has to dislike Greg more. I don't know. I kind of, I guess. They seemed like a, like the dust has settled on them and their, I mean, the co-parenting is not really intense.

[00:30:51] They're talking about a 30 something year old, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Frenemies. I, I just felt like, and Donovan got it. I, whereas I did not, which is why there's more than one of us on this show for sure. Uh, Donovan being the smarter of the two, you know, the show wants us to understand Elizabeth to be worse than she is maybe. And I, I just didn't feel it. I got it in a logical sense, I suppose.

[00:31:18] I wouldn't characterize her as like a villain, but I would say that like, there's a, like a danger to the kind of carelessness with which she lives her life. Just like with Archie. Okay. Well, I think. Real consequences. Yeah. Now there could be like an existential threat to this place that everyone loves because if she's in charge, God know, in a kind of a perilous time for academia, like what is she going to do to, but even she says to Greg, like, no, no, no, no.

[00:31:48] Now do you see why I was always going on about this place? Yeah. Yeah. So even the villain is like, has that endearing quality. That's pretty typical for a Bill Lawrence show. I think. Yeah. With the exception of the former owner of the soccer team in Ted Lasso. Except he's like rich. What was his name? Isn't it Rupert? Rupert. Of course. Rupert. Yeah.

[00:32:16] Anyway, you guys said you were, I know Adam said he was very on board with Katie as a character. Donovan, did you have thoughts about Katie? Oh, I think she did a good job. And I think that it is actually kind of like, it's not super duper subtle, but I think the show did a good job of like showing that like, yes, maybe Greg has done too much for her. And she does a really good job of like somebody who's in a really tough situation.

[00:32:44] But also, you're kind of like, you have been like someone finding out that she has been handed everything. And trying to figure, I mean like if she gives it up, it's crazy. She'll never get another job. But, you know, that's a difficult spot to be in, right? And I'll mention here as a non sequitur, the joke about the tooth, maybe was my favorite of the scenes where the old man busted a tooth because he was laughing and Greg says, I don't think that's supposed to happen ever.

[00:33:14] I'm going to be great. That's brutal. That was funny. I thought that her as a character, to me, they were, and maybe you guys disagree, but she was shown to be fairly capable at her job or at least beloved by a number of students. Yeah, she's a good teacher. She was. Which like kind of flies in the face of like, well, obviously she got the job because of that. But like, she's doing a good job, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:33:44] She's a capable. But she's not doing a great job at life, you think? Is that what? Well, she's not doing a great job at life. She's definitely been pushed around a bit in that front. Although even her mom being like, why is she going back to you? Have you looked at her, this husband? Like she just wants to keep having sex with him. Yeah. That was funny. But I don't know that she, I don't know. It works for me because she is doing a good enough job that she can believe that maybe she did it on merit. You know what I mean?

[00:34:12] Like she, she's not that clueless. She's not like just falling forward if that makes sense. Yes. Yes. I agree. Should she have been street wise enough to be like, wait a second? Yeah. There's a lot of smoke around this place. Yeah. Why do I have this job? Sure. But... I mean, your mom's name's on a building, right? Yeah. The math is there. I think that she never expressed anger. Well, that could be in the writing. It's... I mean, she didn't burn a house to the ground.

[00:34:42] Right. And yet she doesn't, she never came off as someone who would burn a house to the ground, ever. Yeah. I don't think that's her performance. She didn't mean to. She didn't mean to. Yeah. No, she didn't mean to. Would have been better if she did maybe. I don't know. I just thought she just came off as a little, the spectrum of her emotions lean toward whiny more so than angry. And I think she should have had both.

[00:35:07] I will say that how I read it, and I assume this is a choice, is it wasn't that she's whiny, it's that she's feeling sorry for herself. Okay. And, but I think like part of like, part of like the journey of her through the season, right, is like taking agency back and saying like, you know what, actually, like, I don't have to just feel sorry for myself. I can do things. That'll be great for the second season if that's the case, and it probably is.

[00:35:36] I will say someone who I thought was really written well is Dylan, the poetry professor and also she became head of that department or was it just, it was bigger than the department. She's the academic dean. Yeah. Yeah, she's great. And well written. She was sly and clever, and her interactions with Greg was knowing, and she played it very well too.

[00:36:06] I really liked their scenes together. She played well off Carell, I thought, and he off of her. Playing the long game with that. Will they, won't they, aren't they? Yeah. Let's hope so, because it's a good one. It's as good as I've seen in a show in a couple of years probably. Yeah. She got some fun moments too with, I mean, they're not like original ideas for an academic

[00:36:31] program, but you know, one being fighting for her students via the publication. Yeah. You know, she got to do that. And then she got to suddenly, for someone who thinks of herself and like aggressively thinks of herself as a poet, you know, like you don't hear a lot of people saying, even if they're teaching, I mean, maybe you guys have different experience in teaching. But there's a lot of people who once they get to that point, they're just like, well, I

[00:37:00] started out wanting to be a poet, but now I'm like this academic. You know what I mean? Her identity is still very much as a creative, but deciding like, oh, I do want administrative power because I have things I want to accomplish. That was kind of a nice growth thing. And it felt natural. It did. Yeah. As you. Yeah. I agree with that. Do you want to chime in with your wife, Dr. Dr. Josh, any more complaints on this? She is a doctorate, college.

[00:37:30] Excuse me, not a, she's Ph.D. Professor. What was her complaints about that? It was funny. We were, we were just laughing about like, well, there's so many things that are unrealistic like the, for one thing, like the president of a school could never have like a graduate student. Like he's not gonna, he's too busy to, he's not having a graduate student, you know, like Very. I'm with a graduate student.

[00:37:50] I was going to say, we've got some boundary crossing here, but I think the thing that, you know, like, Dylan says you can go up for tenure, and she's written, like, three articles. But this is, like, with withering score, and, like, she's not ready for tenure. And what was your joke? Oh, it's for Lord of the Flies. Okay. I've got to save it. So should we segue into Lord of the Flies? We could. Are we at that point?

[00:38:19] So academia and Lord of the Flies, here's the thing, is that academia and Lord of the Flies, in reality, Lord of the Flies is a much more accurate portrayal of academia than Rooster is. That's pointing at that as the real deal. Yeah, there's your realism. It's a mirror image of academia. Okay, in case you didn't go to high school in Alabama, Lord of the Flies is a novel. I'm assuming you read it in a lot of high schools across the country. I think so.

[00:38:47] It's a 2026 Netflix miniseries about the plane full of boys, crash land on an island, and they get into some mischief. They're a little rowdy. They're a little naughty. It's a little hooliganism. The book and adaptations that have come before have always been about this heart of darkness at the center of mankind, especially through divisions and dividing up into tribes.

[00:39:15] Do you think, no, you said this earlier, you do think this one had new things to say in order for it to exist for a reason? I do. I think it did. It had. And one of the things that I thought it did powerfully was this idea that, like, as set up by Piggy, that, like, laws and rules and taking care of things, it's kind of boring. Yes.

[00:39:41] Like, you know, and I think that we can see that societally where we have the people who, like, it's boring to just keep doing, like, we want the guy who's going to smash things up. Some people voted for him for president, you know. But for these kind of reasons, right? At least you're not bored.

[00:39:57] Wasn't it you, maybe, who said once on this podcast, it's been probably a year or two ago, that the heroes of America are the ones whom you don't see that probably put on a suit of some sort and go to work and figure out the funding for the waterworks department or something? I don't know if I said that, but I definitely feel that way.

[00:40:23] You know, like, as you're, like, if you stop to think about how complex and interconnected our society is, you're like, we don't want the jacks of the world running things. We want the piggies of the world making sure that bridges aren't falling down, you know? Even if they're a little haughty about it. Piggy was just right. Oh, there's my, this is a good segue for my joke. Watched the first episode, and I was like, I don't want to build up too much gas, but it's been building in me for a week.

[00:40:51] I said, Piggy's really the Paul McCartney of this island. That's so true. Guys, we should probably play some songs. Mm-hmm. We should probably record something since we're here. That was Piggy. I thought that this show was particularly slow. People have praised its choices. Yeah. In particular, the one where many of the boys were given this silent close-up in episode one. I found that odd. I liked a lot of what they were doing.

[00:41:19] I really liked the just kids looking into the camera. And a lot of it, I kind of mentioned this in non-spoilers, but it built a sense of the eerie and the uncanny for me. Interesting. And that was working very well, especially – and I do think that there is, in the book and here too, there's something about faces and the way the faces, people's faces change. We paint them. We wear masks. We become –

[00:41:49] I see that now. Yeah. It's a good point. I know it's probably supposed to be a little slower. They had four episodes to work with, and I thought it was a thoughtful production. I just couldn't lay my finger on some of those choices, and I think you helped me just then. I guess I expected a little more in terms of action, dialogue, or even improvement upon the original. But it stuck close to it, but at the same time did something different, and that's an impressive feat.

[00:42:16] I think so, and I think I didn't find it boring with what it was doing. I don't think that I did either. I was never bored. I felt like it was very deliberate. And I felt – one of the things that I also appreciated is there were some kind of – there were choices that the show made that could come off as very flashy.

[00:42:39] But I think the show very deliberately did not kind of draw attention to itself. Like, look at this cool thing we're doing. I agree with that. Even things as small as sometimes the eeriness of the nighttime when the palm fronds turn red when Simon sees them and then other characters see them that way. Yeah. I think it could really have been like, look at this cool thing we're doing. Well, they had to – And it really kind of kept it just as part of the mix.

[00:43:08] Wasn't that a matter of necessity? They had to use infrared cameras because the boys didn't – couldn't shoot that late into the night? I think so. Something like that. It really was something like that. But it ended – you know, it's great. It ended up suiting. Yeah, you're right. It really did. They made something that boxed them in work. And that's always good. I can't say enough, too, for this adaptation about how good the actors were.

[00:43:38] They were pretty damn good. These kids were intensely good. I found Lox Pratt as Jack and Ike Talbot as Simon to be very impressive. Yeah. Well, I thought – they all did. I actually – I liked – I pulled up his name here so I can say it. I loved David McKenna as Piggy. He's big. And I thought – I thought he was an excellent – And – And Sawyer says Ralph was fine.

[00:44:07] He does a great job. He gets better. I think – I do think that one of the nice things about – or one of the strengths of this four episodes, each one kind of focusing on a different character. Piggy is great for the first episode. Of course. Nikki, as he would rather be called. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But I thought that going into Jack right away as the second episode. Yes.

[00:44:34] Really, it does more than – like, he's not just a preening bully. Uh-huh. He is. Whoa. You know? I agree. But there's a vulnerability to him that he's scared of exposing. Oh, that's it. Yes. You know? And I thought that that was – because he is sort of the antagonist of the rest of the show.

[00:44:58] So I thought that having him so early and showing the good things about him, too, was good. I thought that was a good choice. It's interesting, too, to have him have vulnerabilities that he's trying to hide and then a couple of people under him, like the Maurice and the Roger, who may not have those vulnerabilities, but they do take on his anger and hatred without any vulnerabilities, which become even more dangerous. Yeah.

[00:45:28] Yeah. I think by the end of the series, we're supposed to understand that Roger has become more dangerous than Jack. Very much. Very much. What's your interpretation of the novel and the series if you put them together or one or the other? There's this idea, I think, that the boys act in violence because that's the essence of mankind or even men. Or do the boys turn to violence because it's all they've ever seen in their adults? Good question.

[00:45:55] I think in this show, I do, or it may or may not be saying that violence is inevitable, but I thought the show did a good job of being like, it's collapsing. Not because collapse was inevitable, but because of things like Jack. He wants to be like a hunter. He wants to have like the fun role. Hunter. Firekeeper.

[00:46:19] They want to do this stuff that, and Piggy wants them to make, just do boring things that are safe. And I really, I think maybe I'm probably over-reading it, but really that idea that like harmony and working together and all that is boring. I thought that that was something really interesting that pulling out from the series that I'm not sure I would have got from the novel. It's been a long time since I've read that. Yeah, me too.

[00:46:47] So, you know, I think it was, you know, I think the novel is kind of like that Bruce Springsteen line where he's like, well, mister, there's just a meanness in this world in Nebraska. Yeah. Yeah. That idea is in the novel about this is what they've seen in adults. In fact, it might not, it may be a little more blatant. This is where I wish the ongoing war in the background had been more specific.

[00:47:15] Now, they were very, they were very cagey about if there was a war. Right. In the novel, they're more blatant than I realized. I know I said it's been a long time since I read it. I read about half of it recently before I put it away. In the novel, Piggy tells the others that they likely won't be found because there's been an atomic bomb dropped on their country in everyone's guide. Which is not true. He just thinks that's what happened. I don't think it's true. He just assumes.

[00:47:43] So, if that line would have been in the show, I think it would have been really fascinating. But they chose not to. I don't know. Good job of, to the show, you know, the fathers are all military. Right. And express themselves in different ways, or many of the fathers are. Jack's not expressing at all. Yep.

[00:48:05] The one who most explicitly witnesses violence, or tells us from his parent, is Simon. And instead of that making him violent, it actually makes him insightful. And gentle, to a degree. And, yeah, which I thought was very interesting. You know, there's roads you can, there's roads we can all take, right? There's paths that could go different ways.

[00:48:32] But when everyone gets down on a bad path, it gets real hard to get out of it. Yeah. Well, is it easier to hate now than it was 20 years ago? I don't know. Depends on what you mean. I'm just thinking social media is at everybody's grasp. It tends, the anger tends to get pushed more in the algorithm, those kinds of things.

[00:48:52] I do think, I do think that there are studies that have shown that anger is the emotion that goes viral the most. It is. It spreads the most. That part is factual. I'm just curious, does that influence? I do think, I would agree with you, Blaine. Like, I don't think that can be good for us. And I don't think, you know, there's kind of like the old joke, right?

[00:49:17] If someone is like, I love mankind, but like I hate individual people I hate, you know? But I do think it's kind of bad for us to spend a lot of time thinking about how much we dislike each other. How much we enrage each other. How much we, you know? Yeah, it goes back to a conversation you actually had off mic, which is that love being something to work for. Yeah, yeah. Takes work. Takes the boring stuff like Piggy, maybe. You know, it's true.

[00:49:48] It's true. Like, Piggy is boring, but he's taking care of the little kids. He's making sure they don't die of dysentery, you know? Yeah. He's doing his best. And he's despised for it. And I really think that, and this is not, I'm forgetting her name right now, but the person who reviewed this for Roger Ebert noted how good of a job David McKenna did of playing Piggy.

[00:50:16] Very sympathetic, but also like you can see that he's a little annoying. Yeah, he would be a little annoying. You know, like he would be a little annoying. I think whom I referenced last week, yeah. Yeah. He did. Yes, thank you. Yes, that was who it was. And I thought that was a good, I liked, also, I liked reading that review before watching this. I think it helped me a lot too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:38] You know, there was an actual group of boys in the real world from Tonga, I think, and they got stranded on a Polynesian island for almost a year before being rescued, and they lived peacefully. Yeah, that's one of the things where I think that this is literature, and it's saying something.

[00:50:59] And I'll also say, this might be completely, I might be completely wrong, but I think there's something too that Golding is saying, you know, at the end, the officer's like, I think a bunch of British kids could do better.

[00:51:11] I do think that there's something Golding is saying about, like, these private and public schools, the viciousness that's hidden in that kind of, you know, especially elitist schooling and this sort of elitism of assuming that, well, British boys can never devolve like this.

[00:51:32] You know, there's a, it reminded me of, this is a real big stretch, but there's a bit where in, I just remember this from a college class, one of Jane Austen's novels, Northanger Abbey, where the heroine, you know, it's a funny book, it's good, but the heroine has kind of talked herself into believing the most awful things about who later ends up being the protagonist. And he says to her, this is impossible.

[00:52:00] This is, we're Christian. We're English. You know, just, I think that there is something in there about, like, those are not the bulwarks that you think they are. And that Navy man, I assume, says that to the boys, that you would put on a better show because you're British, but at the same time, it's almost as if he's ignoring the class divide in British society. Oh, for sure. It does make, yeah.

[00:52:30] The Tonga boys landing on the Polynesian island makes me question, would it be the same way if that had been Western culture? That's another good question. And, you know, there's a lot of research out there that people, I mean, people in tough situations do horrible things to each other, but people in tough situations also cooperate. Not perfectly. Yeah.

[00:52:56] But, so I think this is, I think that this is where it's literature. Yeah, I agree. And I'd say, too, if you're ever lost on an island, try and cooperate with people before you listen to the guys who seem to know. But at least to me, it felt like, to me, kind of talking about, like, that really emerged for me that peace and law and taking care of each other is boring.

[00:53:24] Like, that really emerged as something it's saying very profoundly to me right now. That's good. And I think that's a really good thing. I think that's really, that would be the takeaway message for me. I mean, if I was going to boil this down to a message, unfortunately, it's not just didactic TV. It's doing a lot of other really good things. I even loved the kind of, like, subtle subtext between, like, maybe, you know, there was something going on between Simon and Jack. Yeah. And Jack has, Jack.

[00:53:54] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Jack has a fear, I think. Of being thought of. Oh, yeah. Of being discovered. You know, he's afraid when they find Simon's. And I thought that was another, it was, they did a really good job of the way, like, these vulnerabilities and egoism, like, they, you overcompensate. Oh, yeah. And that's where the, you know, that's where the destruction lies in, too.

[00:54:21] So, there's a lot of, the stuff that is laid down isn't just necessarily, well, man is naturally evil and he's always going to fight. But, like, these things in our culture break out in different ways. Even things like, you know, Colin Piggy, fat. You know, who he was before they landed on that island is part of the conflict. So, these things were primed in here with our culture and our society. You know, they're already here.

[00:54:50] It just takes, it takes a little spark to get them going. Hey, you know, if you want to continue down the path of Jack being a little bit of a Trump figure, it's not there as blatant as I'm about to lay it on. No, I wouldn't say, yeah. But, you know, how often is it that Trump, you know, likes strong men but yet would be terrified if you called him gay? Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Sure.

[00:55:18] Let's go into the last show we're going to talk about. It's the waters of Widow's Bay. Poor Tom continues to fight four things at once. He's fighting the scary events of Widow's Bay, improving his town for tourists, his son's baditude, and his dislike for the townspeople because they are hindering him from doing some of this. But Beach Reads, the episode we're talking about, was noticeably non-Tom.

[00:55:45] Yeah, he's only in there for maybe a minute at the end. Oh, it worked, though. Worked for me. Worked for me. There was a moment when I was like, oh, we're not going to see Tom. But then the episode was so good. It was so good that you didn't care. I was like, they actually did a great job here. Yeah, you expressed concern last week it could be a Monster of the Week series, which you were for a more serialized narrative. It looks like it's going to be a blend of both. And by this episode, I'll say it could do it well.

[00:56:15] Well, the flip side of Monster of the Week is like, you know, and I think they've been doing it so, is that you can play with different fun things in different episodes. Right? Yes. And I think the show has successfully done it. I will go so far as to say it's successfully done that. I was, I thought, like, I get it. There's just weird stuff that happens on this island. The blend is that it's also a character of the week show. Yes. Yes. We learned some background.

[00:56:44] Well, that worked really well with this one. Yes. Yes. We learned a background for a few of these people. And I wouldn't be surprised and I would be interested to see more from, say, the sheriff or Jeff Heller's character. Oh, for sure. I hope we get more from Jeff Heller. Yeah, Jeff Heller. And he, whoa, he's playing such a different character. He's so funny, though. Rosemary in City Hall, she's played by Dale Dicker. Dale Dicker. Yes. Excuse me.

[00:57:13] Now, she seems to have a background. You know, she's the one in the kitchen smoking saying, I didn't understand a word of that speech. That was actually done very well, too. Like, Rosemary being the only one who knows what's going on, but then, like, really being the only one who knows what's going on. She knows and she's not pushing it in their face. That was funny. I mentioned that this episode might be a little bit about loneliness of the island, but it's also about female loneliness.

[00:57:42] Great to do that. After so many episodes of TV we've seen and talked about that were about male loneliness, specifically DTF St. Louis and a few more. Yeah, yeah. Good to have this one. And maybe even female loneliness when not believed. Yeah. I thought that was pretty well inserted in there. You had to kind of think to get to there.

[00:58:04] It's not believed or the idea that you're taking on something that's not at the same time, like the idea that she's stealing from more legitimate victims, I guess you could say. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a lot of how are you looking at this? Here's the story, but what point of view do you have?

[00:58:25] It's a great metaphor for, or maybe I should say the book in the show is a great metaphor for that, I think. I have to confess, too, I love a good creepy book. I do, too. You know, like just that, I really just enjoyed that plot device. Do you read a lot of self-help books?

[00:58:48] No, I can't stand the way they're, I guess the language of self-help I find very obnoxious. I will plow through them. I'll read one in a day almost and just be like, and not even remember what it said. Yeah. It doesn't mean to do it. It rubs me the wrong way for whatever reason. I was going to say, Patricia may be done with this book if you want to get it from the fire, borrow. Yeah, fish out of the fire.

[00:59:17] Yeah, this show's heading in the right direction. It's really good. It's layered, I think. Who's telling the truth? What truth is reality? Who isn't involved or is? And now we got Wick, Tom, and Patricia seeming to be, as for now, the three who can see a little more of what's going on than maybe most people. Rosemary could easily be included. The sheriff could easily be included.

[00:59:44] And I'm not so sure they're not going to get their own episodes coming soon. I'd be surprised if the sheriff didn't. Yeah, he's good. I love, I think his name's Kevin Collins. I think. Yeah, I can never remember anyone's name. Kevin Carroll. Kevin Carroll. Oh, and he shows up in shows like this, and it's often as a B character. He's just good. He's fun to watch. His reactions are good and realistic.

[01:00:12] I've seen him in so many things where you're thinking, yeah, that's exactly what he would say. Yeah. I think something that I liked about this episode, too, was it wasn't as laugh out loud funny as some of the other ones have been. And yet, it didn't detract from it. And there was some funny bit, especially with Jeff Heller as Dale trying to set up the equipment. I think it's Dale, right? Something like that. Like he's got, he's like playing Spotify ads. I don't have premium.

[01:00:41] I mean, I can't believe. But, like, it actually being, like, sad and creepy and not working. Yeah. This is honestly getting, I mean, we'll see how it ends, but on the basis of four episodes, I'd say for this year, it gets the better than it needs to be award. Because it could just be a silly show about monsters. Yeah. And I think it's doing a little bit more than that. It doesn't hurt that they have such fine actors.

[01:01:11] It tapped into one of my fears that I have. When the party goers, you see their reflection in the mirror. And they're not, they don't look like they should. They have their mouths agape in the scream mask style almost. But Patricia can't see it. That's one of the, it taps into the fear that I have is that what, if I turn my head, what if behind me disappears? Yeah, yeah.

[01:01:40] Is that what I think it's going to be? Yeah. Yeah. I, that worked very well for me as well. I think there's a fear too. Possibly neurotic people like myself. And me. But like, there's an almost, like, do you ever, like, sometimes all, someone will bring something up and I'll be like, oh, I have no memory of that. And that's almost kind of scary. It is. Where they're like, there's this thing about yourself that you can't see anymore.

[01:02:03] I think there's, that's a fear too for, that I see with Patricia, where it's like, everyone else can see that you've got a horn crown. Yeah. You think you're wearing a tiara, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I remember it as this. Yeah. And it's kind of, it's kind of scary. Like this thing that's like, whoa. I had no idea that was, you know. Then they turn and immediately blame her as soon as they recovered. Yeah. Whereas he, she's. Yeah. They were. Clearly the high school dynamics have only curdled over the last 40 or so years.

[01:02:33] Very good show so far. I think that's the end of this week for us. Appreciative of Donovan and Adam's time. And thanks of our listeners for listening to us. So for Adam and Donovan, I'm Blaine. And we hope you avoid self-help hooks this week. Have a nice week, everyone.