Direction of 'The Challenge' and Dualities in 'The Sympathizer'

[00:00:01] Hey everyone, it's me Blaine. Welcome if you go to the alabama take calm these days

[00:00:06] You've got an option to leave us a voice message

[00:00:10] You can specify a podcast you want to talk to

[00:00:13] Tell them what's up tell them your thoughts will get it sent the right place and get a response in the podcast itself

[00:00:20] It's been a few weeks since I've mentioned the gentleman on Netflix is live tends to take center stage

[00:00:27] Did you know that you still have to feed kids even after they stop being babies? We learned so much in parenting

[00:00:33] So the gentleman is a Netflix show from creator and director Guy Ritchie who directs several several of the episodes and produces the rest

[00:00:42] Stars Theo James as a member of a British family

[00:00:45] He's in the military as the show begins

[00:00:48] He gets a call that his father is doing poorly as far as health is concerned

[00:00:51] He goes home his father dies and suddenly the Theo James character Edward is named the Duke of the estate

[00:00:59] Despite being the younger of two brothers from there

[00:01:02] He's living on his now deceased father secret that there's a massive

[00:01:06] Mary Joana

[00:01:08] Operation growing center under their estate. That is really not a spoiler

[00:01:14] I keep things spoiler free

[00:01:17] Early in the episode that happens in five minutes time up to the episode plus, you know

[00:01:22] If you've read any kind of headline about the show, you know that I really hated putting this show on the back burner because it's it really is

[00:01:28] entertaining if Guy Ritchie knows nothing else he understands how to pace movies and in this case of episodes of TV

[00:01:34] To me his other works have honestly been a little frantic

[00:01:38] But here he's tamped that down so the quick cuts aren't mere

[00:01:42] Exaggerations but they kind of color the story and villain blanks where other

[00:01:47] Versions of this story would have long tangential

[00:01:51] Narrative that could bore you here though. It works better shorthand and it's it's good, you know

[00:01:57] It's almost as if Guy Ritchie understands the story. He's telling it's not drama. It's not action

[00:02:04] It's somewhere between the two with plenty of comedy. It is funny

[00:02:09] It's got some true moments of comedy as well as tension. It's kind of above that

[00:02:13] Mid TV a little because it's so self-aware

[00:02:17] And it's just so fucking fun to watch

[00:02:19] I don't get into that next bond hawk because those films have always bored the piss out of me

[00:02:25] But how do you not consider Theo James as the role? He's charming. He's irresistible in this show

[00:02:32] He is he carries this sense of intelligence to roles. I say he needs to be bond

[00:02:36] He needs to be in consideration still not going to watch a James Bond movie

[00:02:40] But cast Theo James by the way, how is an action movie franchise that tedious? I don't get it

[00:02:46] But as for the gentleman on Netflix

[00:02:48] I'm of the belief that a lot of you would like it the ending and

[00:02:53] The series as a whole does subvert a few likely

[00:02:57] Expectations you may have about shows akin to it depending on what you tend to think when you're watching them

[00:03:02] But for the most part it does it all pretty quality way for eight episodes

[00:03:06] I believe most anyone would get a kick out of it. Although there is

[00:03:10] One middle episode that lagged forks through it. You'll find yourself having a really good time with the gentleman

[00:03:17] Also keeping up with under the bridge

[00:03:19] This might count as a little bit of a spoiler for under the bridge the most recent episode

[00:03:24] Skip ahead 30 seconds

[00:03:26] Maybe a minute if you don't want to hear it the most recent episode employed a voiceover

[00:03:31] In the style of the book the lovely bones

[00:03:34] I mean it felt taken directly from it and it did not work

[00:03:39] But the episode was wise to only use it at the beginning and end

[00:03:43] It is a shorter episode and I think it does almost too good of a job of coloring Rena as a human

[00:03:50] Because it gives damn near her entire family history at least the part of her family

[00:03:54] That's been in British Columbia

[00:03:56] The creators here are doing more than just checking boxes to make sure the victim isn't just a name or some unknown

[00:04:04] Tragedy here. It's a little overdone because I don't know if we needed to know everything

[00:04:08] I do love the scenes where it helped me see how Rena gets more entangled with some of these girls

[00:04:16] As for some other television Colin Farrell Apple TV plus the show sugar this weekend

[00:04:22] It had its big moment

[00:04:24] I would have loved to have gotten this completely blind

[00:04:28] But every critic and his mother had to put something about it in their headlines

[00:04:32] This was episode six and they still put this in the headlines of their reviews. I don't get it

[00:04:39] Yeah, there were big glaring signposts and yes

[00:04:43] There is a specific genre label attached to this show if you're careful enough to see it or find it

[00:04:48] However, I'm an idiot viewer. I don't look for puzzles. I don't look to try to figure things out

[00:04:53] I wonder how I would have reacted now

[00:04:56] I'm definitely fascinated by the show because I'm thinking how the hell can what how the hell can it do anything now

[00:05:02] What where's it gonna go?

[00:05:04] Also, I'm continuing to wrap up on Apple TV plus his manhunt the series about Secretary of War

[00:05:11] Edwin Stanton search for the Lincoln assassin

[00:05:14] We all know John Wilkes Booth. They all know too. I called this show incredibly

[00:05:20] Unacronistic with his dialogue. It just feels like it was rushed in the writer's room

[00:05:25] Or no one paused to say is that how they would talk in Civil War America post Civil War?

[00:05:32] You know what the last few episodes a big pretty good

[00:05:35] I've got two more before I'm finished with the series and give a more conclusive nod or

[00:05:42] Shaking of the head to manhunt, but you know, it's a show for those of us who can forgive some kind of major

[00:05:47] Flaws and want to know more about a blurry part of history in America set design is beautiful

[00:05:54] I really do feel transported when I watch the show. I just wish there weren't

[00:06:00] Things that jarred me out of that transportation to bias men's these stars at Edwin Stanton

[00:06:06] Every down again. I struggle to think is he able to carry this show almost by himself. He's done well so far

[00:06:13] Let's get in the show get other guys in here

[00:06:21] You know how people say that these people need no introduction, it's not the case here

[00:06:26] These two gentlemen joining me now need an introduction Adam

[00:06:29] musician extraordinaire

[00:06:31] literary mind and on of them we've got a film buff

[00:06:36] encyclopedic knowledge and

[00:06:38] Also a media specialist these two guys like the idea of freedom. I'm more into democracy

[00:06:44] Yes, yeah, that's kind of what we got now

[00:06:48] Yeah

[00:06:51] We will get into the specifics of the sympathizer in the back half

[00:06:55] But at the front of the show we like to talk general vague broadly

[00:06:59] Donovan, where are you after three? No spoilers involved big thumbs up love Park Chanwook

[00:07:04] Think that the I apologize. I just looked up how to say his name and it has escaped me the gentleman that plays the captain

[00:07:11] It's a difficult name for me to say personally with an SH sound and I've completely so I apologize captain. You're doing great

[00:07:17] He is good

[00:07:18] Some raves from my wife misery porn she calls it and I will never watch again. She says raves dr.

[00:07:26] Beth, okay, that's right

[00:07:27] So you let me ask you this who is this show for me? Yeah anyone else academics, right?

[00:07:33] Academics, yeah, you're right

[00:07:36] This is going on story alone because I'm a simpleton

[00:07:39] I thought that the second episode dipped so low that I wouldn't be surprised to find out that people bailed for good on it

[00:07:45] Wow, and I wouldn't blame them

[00:07:47] I found myself shocked that the book is a Pulitzer prize winning

[00:07:51] But then the third episode came around and I was like, I'm curious to hear your thoughts cuz I

[00:07:55] Like the second and third episode. Yeah, I'll explain it more

[00:07:59] I just found the second one quite slow in comparison to the first and the third interesting

[00:08:03] I found the second one pretty speedy. Can I can I ask for a clarification on what you mean by dips so low?

[00:08:08] Because I'll introduce my vantage point on this. I have read the book

[00:08:12] Yeah, yeah, it's been some time but I have not seen the series

[00:08:15] So I'm interested in maybe the beats that you're referring to you say dips

[00:08:19] So low is in what Donovan his wife lovingly referred to as misery porn was that was that what it was?

[00:08:25] Or are you saying it just it wasn't good. No

[00:08:27] I do think it was good. I think that the pacing halted things

[00:08:32] Interesting. Yeah, I didn't have that experience at all and it was also leaving me wondering

[00:08:36] What story it's telling?

[00:08:39] What's the undercurrent here because I thought I had a good grasp on it in the first episode

[00:08:44] And I felt like I lost it in the second and then in the third

[00:08:47] I feel like I kind of regained it but it looks like from trailers for the fourth

[00:08:51] I'm going to lose it again, which is really weird like I did like I can see how this works as a book

[00:08:55] I don't know if it's going to be working for me personally as a show

[00:08:58] But I am liking a lot of it and I'm like I said, I totally going story alone because I'm a simple but visuals fantastic acting

[00:09:07] Stellar doesn't put me in the time period. Yes set design wonderful music. I mean, you know, but just story

[00:09:13] I'm like what what's going on? We're gonna have some spirit in conversation

[00:09:17] We will back after the show we'll talk the sympathizer

[00:09:20] I thought the third episode had did have a lot of propulsion and a clear sense of the narrative more specifics later

[00:09:28] tune in to hear us fight boy fights

[00:09:32] What's boy fights is that a thing is that internet slang I haven't caught up with

[00:09:39] Oh, yeah, baby into the babybuster shorts

[00:09:42] You guys will throw out those arrested development quotes and I'll catch about 75% of them

[00:09:52] Should we do the rest of the show only in a rest? Yes, please you have to spend the last 20 years dedicated to poisoning your brain

[00:09:59] Blame. That's no, no, no, I love the show and I watch really what it takes

[00:10:03] I watched that first season of time the second season little less and someone and so forth

[00:10:07] You know how they talk about brain plasticity and rewriting your neural pathways

[00:10:11] Yeah, for sure. My mind are in the shape of Balbo great of Balbo and the OC

[00:10:16] Populated by the blutes. It's a dark place

[00:10:20] Think of all the information that could be there

[00:10:23] It's not so there's your general ideas about the sympathizer and arrested development which we always recommend here

[00:10:29] We we're going to dip into the challenge in broad terms

[00:10:34] Okay, so no spoilers here yet because we have a season of all stars currently airing

[00:10:39] I've come to realize there are three things happening with people in the challenge that either a

[00:10:43] Watch this show religiously be have no idea it exists or what it is or see shocked. It's still on

[00:10:51] You're talking about taking it down, right?

[00:10:55] You're still doing that buddy

[00:10:57] I do get that question a lot more than you think no probably not a lot

[00:11:02] I get a lot it's almost like wrestling in that sense that seems like those are wrestling fans

[00:11:07] They're like, I didn't know that was a thing. I watch it religiously or oh, yeah, you still watch that when I was 12

[00:11:15] We're not in spoilers we're getting the challenge all stars fourth season on Paramount Plus in just a second Adam

[00:11:20] It's the challenge

[00:11:22] Comparable to pizza. I have eaten a lot of pizza while watching it but I need you to expand more on this

[00:11:29] There's no such metaphor. No such thing as bad pizza. There's no such thing as a bad challenge season

[00:11:34] I've had some bad pizza. Okay. Well is that speak on that is the challenge comparable to sex?

[00:11:40] There's no such thing as bad sex. It's just sex. I think the meaty movement has taught us

[00:11:47] You have quashed all of my

[00:11:49] Analogies today. I hope you got more. No, I just I'm just saying that even a bad season of the challenges is

[00:11:54] Worthy of your time in fun. Yeah, I mean even

[00:11:58] Season 39 of the the flagship program kind of sucked, but I watched every episode

[00:12:03] Yeah at a certain point you think well, this is 90 minutes of my week

[00:12:09] That's kind of just glossy fun most of the time. So I'm okay with it

[00:12:13] Yeah, I never choose to include it in my list of good shows at the end of the year

[00:12:18] I don't even bother to put it in there. It's just something I watch, you know, 48 weeks out of the year

[00:12:24] It's just always exists. Yeah, I just have a problem

[00:12:30] But Adam what is it you like about it and and is it is there a certain type of person who would like this show?

[00:12:35] Who doesn't know about it because you know Natalie watched it for years and years

[00:12:40] And I kind of begrudgingly sat on the couch while this was happening

[00:12:44] And I got converted during the final of the free agents season because it was just impressive enough

[00:12:51] Physically what they were doing, but they also were getting paired with people who like there was some luck on

[00:12:58] the right partner at the right time and

[00:13:01] The hatred that they could express for each other very eloquently in these

[00:13:06] Pressure situations made for great television

[00:13:09] I do think we can get into this with all-stars specifically and the direction that that show appears to be heading

[00:13:16] People who were on real-world and road rules could express themselves and had interesting points of view and could communicate

[00:13:23] Really well with each other and I think that's that's dropped off quite a bit in the last few seasons

[00:13:28] But if you go back and watch those old seasons, I mean there's you know

[00:13:32] The house drama isn't just like you get drunk and have a disagreement. They can actually I don't know

[00:13:37] It's interesting to see personalities

[00:13:39] Is that a sign of not being from real-world role rules or is that just a sign of the times?

[00:13:44] I think it's both but I do think that the bar the interview process to get on one of those shows was maybe different than to get on

[00:13:52] Big brother or either one or whatever feeder shows are coming to this

[00:13:56] I'm imagining like they articulated like getting drunk and having an argument

[00:14:01] It's like someone just pound out of your mind like vittgenstein did solve most problems with modern philosophy

[00:14:08] Okay, maybe not quite that is not that I know

[00:14:10] I

[00:14:11] Think maybe maybe a higher level emotional intelligence and how to mess with each other

[00:14:17] I mean they're not having like a lot of like intense dialogue like

[00:14:21] Or maybe just how to react to someone who doesn't agree. Yeah, I mean it's all

[00:14:26] Conflict management. Yeah, that's one of my the aspects of the show

[00:14:30] I really do like is one week me personally

[00:14:32] I will like so and so and then the next week I'm like no I don't like you anymore

[00:14:36] What are you doing? Right because they reacted a specific way to a certain circumstance?

[00:14:42] Yeah, and I can't take away the fact that it's just fun to watch

[00:14:46] Like when the challenges themselves the dailies are

[00:14:50] Enjoyable there I'll use it or just kind of glossy magazine fun to view

[00:14:55] You know, they do cool things and they're generally athletic people. You have a rooting interest most of the time

[00:15:00] I can change somewhat season to season

[00:15:02] But they've been doing it so long now that you know CT is an obvious example of somebody that you see have a whole

[00:15:08] Bad guy to good guy arc and some real life stuff happen in that

[00:15:13] So rewards committed viewing I suppose so when they go into these eliminations

[00:15:18] You're you know, you have this whole backstory in your head of of this guy lining up against this guy

[00:15:24] And haul brawl and who you want to win and who you want to get

[00:15:27] You know sent to the hospital and I would assert that even if you don't know

[00:15:30] This is for people who really don't know much about it or haven't watched it in 12 years

[00:15:33] You can establish that sort of rapport

[00:15:37] With I hate to say character but with these competitors early like in episode one and two

[00:15:43] You're like no, I like this one and I don't want this one. I hope they do get out in elimination, right?

[00:15:49] Totally yeah much to our dismay at times

[00:15:52] That's why they keep unpopular people around because well, yeah hate watching is definitely a thing

[00:15:57] Oh, yeah, and you know, I don't like I will this is not too big of a spoiler Ion for example, right her absence is

[00:16:06] Notable that's an interesting one because I think there's still plenty of drama happening

[00:16:12] That doesn't I like my villains on the challenge to be relatively self-aware

[00:16:17] Like like Wes or so like Wes. I think Amanda can kind of at times turn and wink to the camera

[00:16:24] I think Devin definitely does that Kyle was great at being antagonistic, but Kyle's just so antagonistic that he's a

[00:16:32] Protagonist yeah, let's get into the spoilers if you have not caught up with challenge all stars

[00:16:38] You should if you're a fan and if you're not a fan. I don't know dip your toe in

[00:16:43] All stars can really draw in a viewer who hasn't seen the challenge in many years

[00:16:48] That's seems to be what it was designed to do we're gonna get into some more of that in just a second

[00:16:52] So let's do the spoiler line here you go and I'll start with this

[00:16:56] What are your thoughts on the show or the producers kind of turning away from what made it great?

[00:17:02] Specifically with all stars with all stars and with maybe even the flagship show and some other of its

[00:17:08] Shows if the challenge is gonna continue in real world and road rules or not

[00:17:13] Then they have to have fresh faces coming from somewhere

[00:17:16] I don't love the way that they've done it

[00:17:18] But that may be more a characteristic of

[00:17:21] Influencer culture and the fact that these folks can get a toehold of fame and X amount of

[00:17:28] Instagram followers and then be like a fitness guru or a model or a you know motivational

[00:17:34] What it's just it seems very silly because now they're their professional

[00:17:38] Reality TV stars which takes some of the what I was talking about earlier not that it was ever real life

[00:17:44] They were always kind of playing characters. They were aware they're playing characters on the show

[00:17:48] But they were also just people and now they you know

[00:17:52] It's it's changed the game

[00:17:53] And I do think that what was so nice about all stars when it started was that you had this this old school

[00:18:00] Original they've been vetted by that process of application and been on the show

[00:18:06] And you know some people would say the golden era of it

[00:18:09] Cat Williams in his most recent Netflix stand-up has a great joke about you can be an influencer now and not even influence one person

[00:18:17] Yeah, I think what has been great about all stars so far

[00:18:21] And it was almost a I remember us kind of laughing at the first challenge on the episode one season one

[00:18:28] that they may not have

[00:18:31] Calibrated the the competition to the contestants that it was physically too hard that they didn't realize that

[00:18:38] Especially then they were dealing with

[00:18:40] Folks in their 40s folks in their 50s, you know people who have been dedicated to careers and children and not not working out and

[00:18:49] Partying in equal measure that's that's changed and now some pretty young faces on this season

[00:18:55] And it sounds from the look of things. It's trend more and more in that direction

[00:19:00] Yeah, all stars is kind of a half-and-half now with season four

[00:19:04] It's half people you recognize from 15 years ago versus some people you recognize from only five years ago

[00:19:11] Well, even somebody like Cam who is a fan favorite at times though

[00:19:15] She may be wearing out her welcome this season, you know

[00:19:18] She's she does not fit the criteria of the original all-stars set up

[00:19:23] No

[00:19:24] And if you're following rumors on who may be cast for the next all-star season

[00:19:28] It's it just doesn't fit the term all stars does it to you not at all

[00:19:34] for example Fessie's rumored could very well be on all-stars season five and

[00:19:39] He's made a final what every time he's been on the show, but it just seems like he's been there long enough

[00:19:44] Am I right about him being in a final every time? I think so did he go home one time for

[00:19:50] Like a physical altercation or something. Oh that you know what you may be right. Yeah, okay, so

[00:19:56] Every other than yeah, yeah other than a DQ. He's been he's also coming from a CBS program and big brother

[00:20:04] And I'm not right. I'm not into that as a feeder

[00:20:07] You know even if you have to branch out and you say okay are you the one that's fine

[00:20:11] You can have been on that that brings in Tori and Devon and Cam and

[00:20:16] Folks like that Nelson if he were still competing. Yeah, just I don't know about opening it up

[00:20:20] This seemed like it was supposed to be the safe place for

[00:20:23] Classic challenge fans have they recalibrated the competitions too much are they too easy now?

[00:20:30] No, I think they're like this this previous weeks was a great example of

[00:20:35] It can be fun and goofy but also a physical challenge with going down though

[00:20:40] We go in the luge and they had to wear the goofy bobblehead thing

[00:20:43] But so it looks funny, but it also looked fun

[00:20:47] You know you're thinking oh, that looks like a good time sliding down that thing

[00:20:50] But they're also trying to collect the water and you know there was some strategy involved

[00:20:54] That's just a great blend of mm-hmm like you don't need like

[00:20:59] pyrotechnics every time or

[00:21:01] Night challenges or whatever they've done in the last few seasons just come up with a good kind of goofy thing and let them go

[00:21:08] What would be your criteria for being an all-star or being a person to come on to all-stars?

[00:21:15] Would it be age I think number of seasons

[00:21:18] I think it needs to be

[00:21:20] Somebody who came from an MTV show and I know that eventually they will age out of people who meet that

[00:21:27] Criteria so they're looking towards the future. They need to have put in a bit of time made some fine

[00:21:32] Hopefully won some finals, but obviously there's only a

[00:21:36] Limited number of those but at least made finals kind of made a name for themselves

[00:21:41] And yeah if there may be a little too, you know like somebody like Durell

[00:21:46] Durell can go on the main season and hold his own

[00:21:48] But hasn't really made a deep run in a long time

[00:21:51] I hate to doubt the guy, but like does he have what it takes to win a final anymore?

[00:21:55] I don't know on the main show. That's a great candidate to come in to all-stars

[00:22:01] Leroy is kind of trending that direction. He could have stuck around the main program, but probably mid 30s

[00:22:07] Sure dip your toe in all-stars if somebody like Tori showed up

[00:22:11] I would say no you need to go back to the main main show

[00:22:15] Well, you know, but it's possible that I keep going back to facades because he's the one I remember

[00:22:20] It's possible. He's gonna be in season five

[00:22:23] That's ridiculous it is that breaks all of my criteria

[00:22:27] Yeah, I wish they would come out with a nice set of criteria like if you've won

[00:22:33] Any championship you can come on this or if you've been in

[00:22:37] Three finals or more or if you've won six eliminations or more like those would be the or if you won ten eight

[00:22:46] Dailies or more like those kinds of things. I would thought that would be really interesting and they could change in season to season because

[00:22:51] Obviously they they build those criteria and then they say here's who fits it and then they call them and they're all

[00:22:57] Into careers having families whatever they can't do it. I understand that you have to cast a wide net sometimes

[00:23:03] But yeah, you have strong opinions on challengers not showing up in shape. It's happening here

[00:23:08] You want to call them out? How do they make it as far as they do? I'm looking at Veronica and Tina

[00:23:12] You know I am I know you are

[00:23:15] I'm trying to think on the guys side honestly, but there's been such a

[00:23:20] Non-factor this season. This is this is a women's season for sure

[00:23:24] Heavies heavy hitters on the women's side legends. I kind of have a soft spot for Tina. I think she's funny

[00:23:30] I think she is one of the even if she's being the antagonist

[00:23:34] She kind of knows that self-awareness you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, I like that with Veronica

[00:23:40] I'm like I know that she show up and you

[00:23:42] Provide some good talking head footage does she hope to win a final? You know or make it even

[00:23:49] There isn't nearly as much drama this season. So what is there a storyline or two that has your interest peaked?

[00:23:55] I mean Cara getting betrayed. Yeah episode before last

[00:23:58] I think is gonna be what what carries it. I do too for at least the middle part of the season and

[00:24:05] Nicole and Laurel's train wreck of whatever's happening there not really game drama, but I guess could turn into it

[00:24:12] I don't see how ace doesn't win this

[00:24:14] Season and here's why that man has not had one minute of screen time total. He really hasn't aside from

[00:24:21] Being a good sympathetic shoulder to cry on a few times

[00:24:25] I think ace had great moments with Janelle when she was leaving

[00:24:29] You know just gave her a good hug and seemed very very sympathetic and

[00:24:33] Had say it out of the fray didn't like you know come to her side and add to the drama

[00:24:37] But was clearly being supportive

[00:24:39] Which was nice to see I think the the cam drama in general

[00:24:44] Cam and Leroy, you know, they know that we really like Leroy

[00:24:48] And the cam is being really annoying but is also

[00:24:52] Interesting viewing because of where they're at in life. You know, I mean how many times says a

[00:24:58] You know new mother come on and still been like collecting milk to take back home. That's crazy

[00:25:04] That's intense. Yeah, my predictions are ace and Cara Maria

[00:25:08] But there's just one winner the top no

[00:25:10] I know for those are my two, you know for a man and woman if I if I can get that those two in who wins out of those two

[00:25:17] though probably Cara Maria, do you like Cara being back after?

[00:25:23] Kind of being shadow banned her and Pauly. No, I do a lot. Yeah, she just adds a lot to the show

[00:25:29] She's she's really she shows up in shape. She takes it

[00:25:33] Seriously, and I like that she doesn't has drama

[00:25:36] But doesn't like is it in insanely negative about the drama? Mmm. Yeah, I just appreciate that

[00:25:42] I said this in my column this week that the best challengers to me are those who have some friction

[00:25:49] But it's they're not going around being weird about it or lying hard to watch because of their negativity

[00:25:55] She doesn't really have any of that whereas Laurel at times can veer into

[00:25:59] She can I am I Anna pure toxicity

[00:26:04] Ion is a good example

[00:26:06] Jay from last season is terrible Michelle or from last season are both good examples of this. Yeah

[00:26:12] It's funny to see Cara back after that just awful season 39

[00:26:17] I mean Cara would have just feasted on everybody in oh, yeah season 39 you drop any of these folks in that's

[00:26:24] I think that's what I mean by it's just a different

[00:26:27] Different type of person that they got back in the day

[00:26:31] How much more nuanced and developed the story lines are in all stars versus

[00:26:37] It just feels 2d when you go back to season 39

[00:26:41] There's so many dream scenarios that you and I could cook up on here

[00:26:44] And we don't want to waste your friends time with that too much

[00:26:46] But what I wouldn't give if season 39

[00:26:50] Replayed they did the same thing and they just dropped

[00:26:54] Leroy and just just you know or someone like that or

[00:26:58] Leroy and David, you know that would just be like or in car more

[00:27:03] Yeah, even somebody who hasn't won like that. Yeah, right, right it'd just be fascinating

[00:27:09] Anyway, there you go any anything you really want to get off your chest about all stars season four so far

[00:27:14] I really I want to pull for Leroy so bad, but he's he's kind of

[00:27:18] Shit in the bed, you know, he looks in shape, but he doesn't perform boil

[00:27:22] I don't know what he got but he got his win

[00:27:24] He got his elimination win that maybe that'll something to build off and he's getting in some team scenarios that you know

[00:27:29] That can be tough to the end of the wrong folks. It's yeah, but then take but one bad apple

[00:27:35] It just you want Leroy to do well you do

[00:27:39] Curious to see if cam sticks around as long as he does

[00:27:43] I mean that neither that's probably impossible in a way unless they both make a final just curious to see

[00:27:49] little break little music for your ears and

[00:27:53] Donovan and I are gonna be back at the break Adam's gonna join us too because he's read the book The Sympathizer

[00:27:57] That's what we're gonna be talking about and that will be spoiler territory. See you in a second

[00:28:09] Okay, we're back that music provided to you by the lookers

[00:28:15] Okay, no comment

[00:28:18] Pick them up wherever fine record. Yes. No is waiting on the follow-up

[00:28:22] Nope, no follow-up. Yeah, so yeah

[00:28:24] We're gonna talk about the sympathizer based on the Pulitzer Prize winning book of the same name by

[00:28:28] Viet Thanh Nguyen the books about an unnamed captain who was playing both sides of the Vietnamese North and South and

[00:28:34] During that war until he shipped off to the US to watch over the general

[00:28:38] whom he's been implanted with as a mole to report back to

[00:28:44] North Vietnam or just Vietnam at this point if you don't want to know anything more again spoilers is

[00:28:50] Where we are with the podcast here my question to you Donovan to begin is do you see the point of having Robert Downey Jr

[00:28:57] Abort to do the roles of four different men. I'm not sure that it is absolutely

[00:29:04] Necessary my assumption is that it is so we have what it is that the CIA agent

[00:29:11] Professor Professor hammer

[00:29:13] Professor hammer

[00:29:14] Yeah, isn't that great and then the congressman man that that Congress really enjoyed

[00:29:19] I'm actually really enjoying his little congressman act and then the and then the proof the filmmaker that he's an actor or filmmaker or both

[00:29:26] He's a filmmaker. He's gonna make a movie about

[00:29:28] Something related that congressman is no perfect by the way

[00:29:32] my

[00:29:33] Assumption is that it is sort of a commentary on like American power and imperialism can wear many faces

[00:29:41] okay, and

[00:29:43] portray itself in different ways and

[00:29:47] also

[00:29:47] Try to ingratiate itself and use you in different ways, but it's all coming from the same place

[00:29:53] I like that is it absolutely necessary. I'm probably not do I dislike it? No actually he's having fun

[00:30:00] I'm having fun. Yeah, I like it also as a joke or a play on the joke of all Asians look alike

[00:30:06] And now we have all Americans all the major Americans in the in the series look alike

[00:30:12] I was really enjoying just having like worked in academia was really enjoying professor hammer. Oh, yeah

[00:30:19] This John Waters take

[00:30:21] Well, he's doing some capital a acting that's that's so capital

[00:30:27] He's showing the scenery. Oh, yeah

[00:30:29] Well that which leads into like another thing that I thought about these two episodes that other people might disagree with me

[00:30:35] But this series is low-key like really funny. Oh, yeah, it's very funny in fact laughing the whole time

[00:30:41] It's more funny that it is maybe anything else. I do wonder I was wondering this in the second episode is just

[00:30:46] How dangerous is the general that he could possibly warrant a spy in the US?

[00:30:50] Like why did they think that and I know this is not nonfiction, but some of this stuff

[00:30:56] played out reality there are stories of

[00:31:01] people getting killed because they had

[00:31:04] sympathetics

[00:31:05] To a particular side and they were in California in the 70s. I assume it's just they're consolidating power

[00:31:11] They're they're about to they're gonna fight a war with China not too long from now

[00:31:15] They're gonna invade Cambodia not too long from now. They probably want to keep an eye on anything that can they could possibly

[00:31:22] destabilize

[00:31:23] What they're doing to consolidate the country. That's my guess. I don't know

[00:31:28] I mean, it seems like it would be kind of dumb to be like hey, he's probably fine

[00:31:32] Okay, am I too much of a simpleton to state that this series is about dualities?

[00:31:39] No, it's totally what it's about. Okay, just countless examples. He's constant

[00:31:44] He's neither Vietnamese nor American right because even the Vietnamese and even like some other characters, right with like one

[00:31:50] They're like well, you know his mom was Chinese. You can't trust that kind

[00:31:53] You know, he's he's neither. He's neither American nor Vietnamese

[00:31:57] You know, it's it's like he says in the third episode right like the spy has to be all these things all the time

[00:32:02] Or you end up in a reeducation camp. Yeah

[00:32:04] I love the distinction they're making with the show and probably with the book is that it's not about opposites

[00:32:09] But it's about two things existing usually internally

[00:32:12] That is kind of another thing that I felt like the Robert Downey Jr.

[00:32:17] Multiple character things is doing where it's like, you know as he's you know

[00:32:21] It is kind of fun like like I don't know hopefully puts the professor of shame a little bit, right?

[00:32:26] But like when the professor tells him to do that horrible like

[00:32:29] Name your Occidental and Oriental

[00:32:33] Right, but this was the 70s that kind of shit was like he's playing along with him, right?

[00:32:38] He's kind of playing the role, but also he's like remember like you know, it could be both and

[00:32:43] Mm-hmm, right instead of either or he's a both and

[00:32:47] Detachment goes a long way in this show that creates this black comedy

[00:32:51] We're kind of talking about my favorite was when the general asked the captain to write the eulogy of the major

[00:32:57] He calls him. He's like, you know, the deed is done. I kill it's done

[00:33:00] Okay, well you write the eulogy for me. All right, thanks

[00:33:04] Man there were so many I felt like even in that the beginning of the second episode where like bond

[00:33:11] Obviously deeply depressed. Yeah, just seen his wife and child killed

[00:33:14] Feels probably feels like he has nothing to live for but the captain is trying to

[00:33:19] Engage him right there in a motel somewhere in Texas. Mm-hmm

[00:33:22] And he turns on the magic fingers bed to try and just like like just lying there

[00:33:28] He's got the massaging bed going

[00:33:31] Like it's horrible, right but like that was so funny to me

[00:33:34] Yeah, another good example when Bond and the captain are scoping out how and where to kill the lumpy major as I called him

[00:33:41] The lumpy they called him don't dumpling. Yeah, the dumpling

[00:33:44] And his aging mother appears and she talks them into coming in and quiet and gives them like a drink and

[00:33:49] Or tea or coffee and in question. It was about what they've been discussing like what is it that you said you can't eat?

[00:33:55] What were you talking about there? Yeah, they're like, oh blood pudding Adam. Is there this much humor in the book?

[00:34:01] Yeah, I think from what I remember it felt a bit absurd a bit

[00:34:06] I have to be honest it blends together with Tree of Smoke by Dennis Johnson in my head a bit

[00:34:12] Really?

[00:34:13] Which is obviously the American side the CIA operating during the war

[00:34:19] Fascinating that one is just almost like a catch-22 style romp at time and it's horrific

[00:34:24] But it's also funny and kind of like a tree of smoke. What are you?

[00:34:29] What are we actually doing here the absurdities of every task given are kind of taken as a whole to illustrate

[00:34:36] I would assume in Johnson's point of view the pointlessness of the war or at least Americans being there

[00:34:41] How good is that book by the way not to be too tangential? Yeah, it's it's real good. It's been sitting on my shelf

[00:34:46] It's a big one especially for Dennis Johnson who yeah

[00:34:51] Yeah, yeah, I

[00:34:54] Remember taking away that the more that I engage with things about the Vietnam War specifically things that didn't come out in the

[00:35:01] 60s and 70s

[00:35:03] That maybe people have had more time to see how all the

[00:35:07] Where the Domino's fell and what what that meant and how that rippled over time people have kind of yeah, there's just a collection of absurd

[00:35:16] Happenings that can be funny and tragic

[00:35:19] Another big through line for the show for me right because it is an absurd situation

[00:35:24] Right, but it's people that have been placed in an absurd situation and part of that

[00:35:29] That I've been thinking is maybe part of the point

[00:35:31] Maybe not but like the Americans can move on Claude's on his next thing

[00:35:36] They're gonna make a movie out of this

[00:35:37] But like the the Vietnamese people very very much cannot move on from this like America can you like well?

[00:35:44] We lost see you guys later. You know and

[00:35:49] And they can't they're stuck

[00:35:51] Yeah, it brings to mind how one of the American viewpoints watching this show would have to be

[00:35:56] Why don't you if you're talking to the captain and you think why don't you just go ahead and side

[00:36:03] With who you're pretending to side with you're already halfway there mentally just disappear

[00:36:09] Yeah, just become the Americanized version of

[00:36:13] What you're pretending to be he's a good soldier. I mean that's that's a big question right is like what holds someone to their

[00:36:21] Duty when that becomes yes less and less

[00:36:25] Tangible and I do think that there's like a sort of I think I might be misusing this word right but like irony right especially

[00:36:31] We're watching like the major

[00:36:33] Tell about how like how easy it is to become an American as long as you have money and like there's this kind of like irony from the audience

[00:36:39] It's like we know right in our that we are not in a post-racial world

[00:36:43] Right that like I am always assumed to be an American but for someone who's from overseas with an accent

[00:36:50] It's not that easy, right?

[00:36:52] Mm-hmm like it's not that easy to just be an American right? It's not that easy to just be Vietnamese

[00:36:57] It's not that easy to just be

[00:36:59] Whoever you're supposed even though

[00:37:01] International conflict choose you up and spits you out on all corners of the globe in this kind of like uncontrollable way

[00:37:08] Yeah, absolutely. It also speaks to if you just have money. It's gonna be good

[00:37:13] As well as we don't have money

[00:37:16] The capitalism nature of it I guess by the way apparently a Vietnamese is just a casually

[00:37:22] Approved language. Okay. I think it's like really easy to cuss in

[00:37:26] It just comes naturally the major by the way in that third episode has that wonderful line about

[00:37:33] Acclimating to American culture that if you don't you're just a ghost living between two worlds forever. Yep little on the nose, huh?

[00:37:40] Yeah, it was

[00:37:42] But the line was so good that I liked it

[00:37:44] Yeah

[00:37:45] One of the most interesting of the dualities is this idea that we're all in new situations

[00:37:51] New country new lives new start, but we're all doing the same old shit. Mm-hmm

[00:37:56] I really like that

[00:37:58] I talked at the beginning how I thought that the second episode was kind of I guess just after the punch of the first episode

[00:38:04] It was a let down and that's on me

[00:38:06] I suppose

[00:38:08] Expectations maybe but I thought that I would have this

[00:38:12] reaction once they got to the

[00:38:15] US because I'm so interested in the Vietnamese aspect of it

[00:38:18] I don't think I had that let down because I knew it wasn't gonna be a Vietnamese Vietnam War show. Okay, and I know that it is

[00:38:25] Very explicit very explicitly right like talking about like the interaction of Vietnam and America

[00:38:31] You know in a and trying to do it in a way that's like you can set we can set apocalypse now in platoon and whatever like in Vietnam

[00:38:39] And that's like Americans dominating and

[00:38:42] Interacting with Vietnam so now like let's flip that on its head. Let's put a Vietnamese person into America

[00:38:48] I think the third episode also gave me a lot of the spy craft that creates just some sort of natural tension of who's gonna

[00:38:58] Do what and when and where will it work out?

[00:39:01] Yeah, and then the comedy of it

[00:39:03] No, I just love some of the stuff that the director does is so great like the scene where they're actually

[00:39:09] Assassinating the major and it pulls out and his mom is smoking. Yeah on the balcony above them the whole time

[00:39:15] Is there it was great? It was their big worry that she was going to hear

[00:39:19] Yes, and then she there she was obviously not hearing I can see how this works really great as a book because with a book

[00:39:25] It's not too big of an issue for this chapter to be here the next chapter to be there

[00:39:30] The and then the next chapter to be totally different place

[00:39:33] So when I saw the trailer for episode 4 and it looks like that's gonna be focused on making a movie

[00:39:40] I'm like that seems like a shift in gears

[00:39:43] Well, it's just such a sprawling story. Ah

[00:39:47] I didn't realize it would be that sprawling maybe it's again. It's my expectations

[00:39:51] I thought it's just gonna be a real dramatic rendering of here spy in America what happens

[00:39:56] But no, it seems it's a lot more than even as I

[00:40:00] Reethanally rise myself on Wikipedia because it has been I read this during the pandemic

[00:40:06] I think when I was reading a lot of much brain

[00:40:09] Well, we were just reading so much that it yeah, I can get a bit mushy in there

[00:40:13] But yeah, I mean it's just so

[00:40:15] little almost like side

[00:40:18] Stories in a way that needed to be in the

[00:40:21] In there for the whole but I'm like, oh, yeah, that was this book

[00:40:24] That wasn't this other thing that I read dealing with Vietnam. It's all wrapped into the same

[00:40:29] Yeah, it's it's a lot. I love what's going on here about America, too

[00:40:34] He calls it the strange and bountiful land

[00:40:36] I think it's when he's riding out

[00:40:38] What he wants to say to the commander back in Vietnam the framing device of him being back in Vietnam

[00:40:45] Obviously as a prisoner. I'm gonna I'm gonna ask Adam not to answer

[00:40:48] But don't even how reliable is this captain as a narrator? And is that gonna be a big factor?

[00:40:54] That is a really good question and the quite answer number one is I don't know

[00:40:59] Question number two is or answer number two is like he seems like not

[00:41:03] Maybe deceitful

[00:41:06] Exactly so much is like he will

[00:41:09] Withhold information, right or not the whole story until it's like okay. Well, yes, I need to back up, you know, yeah

[00:41:15] so he's he's

[00:41:17] maybe not like the most

[00:41:20] Reliable interpreter of his own story does that make sense that might be I don't know if that makes sense

[00:41:26] Adam you want to slightly comment on that at all. I'll hold out. I don't I don't remember enough

[00:41:32] To that's fine big hints of fear and loathing in Las Vegas in that final scene

[00:41:37] Claude with it is like a jarring kind of edit where you get Claude suddenly playing the piano and singing and all the other

[00:41:44] Versions of Robert Downey Jr. Doing blow off of half-naked women

[00:41:48] My absolute favorite one was the one that was like eating whip at the senator eating whipped cream off the girl on the table

[00:41:56] He's a former green beret blank

[00:41:58] They palm Ned the captain chooses to go sit by himself to read the script. Yeah

[00:42:04] Poor poor captain love that actor though. I hate that. I can't pronounce his name

[00:42:08] Maybe I should do that also this is a this is a very very little thing

[00:42:12] But I guess he's he's Vietnamese Australian and man. He's naked his parents are Vietnamese. He's from Australia

[00:42:18] Oh, that's great. He's nailing an American accent. Oh, yeah, he's really good

[00:42:23] He cracked me up in episode one. We were singing low rider

[00:42:27] Kind of mumbling singing like we all do in a car. I love that scene to me that encapsulated how he's

[00:42:33] Half, you know, he's in Vietnam and he's it, you know

[00:42:36] He's in the middle of all this shit, but yet he loves low rider

[00:42:40] Yeah, right and it's like he can connect with like he went to school in the States

[00:42:44] Ray like he can connect with Claude over pop popular music, right?

[00:42:48] Like he can play all these different roles and you know, but like in the the void

[00:42:53] Maybe it's him. I don't know. I mean we'll see

[00:42:56] We'll see where it goes, but like in a very late Conradian sense, right?

[00:43:00] Like at the end of the day, maybe he's like who am I right? You know, we already see that with his father

[00:43:05] Right questions about his father

[00:43:08] Fucking the squid of course. Well, who doesn't want to fuck a squid master bait with the squid

[00:43:13] Makes sense, right?

[00:43:14] You guys don't forget he went to school in the States under the tutelage of professor hammer. Yes

[00:43:19] Hugely important

[00:43:21] Yes, he did Robert Dunning Jr. That that one crammed me up in such a cringe worthy sort of way

[00:43:28] It is interesting how both hammer and Claude specifically refer to him as my protege

[00:43:33] Like both of them think that in different ways and I'm willing to bet the congressman and the

[00:43:38] Movie producer probably is gonna think a very simple problem

[00:43:42] Everybody thinks they own the captain, but no one does. I don't know

[00:43:46] We'll see because you know the commander back in Vietnam obviously thinks as he's forcing him to write his

[00:43:52] What memoir?

[00:43:54] Yeah, testimony testimony, but I suppose is a much more accurate term. I

[00:43:59] Felt the second episode dragged

[00:44:00] But that was simply because of my expectations and

[00:44:04] Having watched the first episode and thinking it was going to be a little bit more straightforward sort of drama of post-Vietnam

[00:44:10] That's so funny to me because like the minute like the second episode starts in the refugee camp and they're like

[00:44:16] Like the generals hiding in the bathroom with the like the latrine

[00:44:21] Oh, that's it

[00:44:22] And like and like and the general's like who could be saying bad things about me?

[00:44:27] Somebody must be inciting this like he just has no clue right? It's like that was hilarious to me

[00:44:32] Like then I was like, oh, I'm completely in with this episode

[00:44:35] I think my incomfort level with how many flies were floating around is what caused me to be distracted

[00:44:40] It was great Donovan real quick comments on Sandra. Oh as the older lover miss more. She's funny

[00:44:47] I like yeah, oh, she's good. It's good to see her really using her acting chops. Yes

[00:44:53] She always brings this plain-spoken straightforward attitude to a lot of her roles very very

[00:44:59] You know she puts up with a lot from professor hammer, so it's good. It's good to see that she's she does but she also gives it back

[00:45:06] I love that. I'm liking her character too so far

[00:45:09] Because she's very very perceptive and she notices things that are important

[00:45:13] Maybe without even quite knowing how important they are for instance

[00:45:17] Noticing that the captain is a very good listener

[00:45:19] And he makes it seem as if he's agreeing with you even though he never actually says anything

[00:45:23] And if you're going to cast an older lady that a younger guy would find attractive you cast Sandra

[00:45:28] Oh

[00:45:29] She's been keeping up with their workouts

[00:45:31] Is she gonna have more of a role than just pointing out these things that we know about the captain that?

[00:45:38] She doesn't fully understand yet. I don't know. I'm happy. Just kind of wait and see I am really curious

[00:45:44] Much like the common Don is right because I have not read

[00:45:47] Right how how sincere can a spy be when they have a fling, right?

[00:45:52] Like that's true isn't there always what's the ulterior motive or complexity? Yeah as the commandant said were you just playing around?

[00:45:59] Yeah, you know is it just an escape is it just some fun and the captain says I was just digging into America

[00:46:06] I was working very hard. Also. I know it shouldn't be funny, but bond turning around the photo of his family

[00:46:12] Yeah

[00:46:15] Why how did you how did you do this in front of my wife? I think I did it in the bedroom like that makes it

[00:46:20] Donovan or Adam I'll let you guys answer the final question here. Both of you have a chance. Do you ever?

[00:46:28] Worry someone's gonna throw a toilet out of a five-story window at that was so fun

[00:46:33] Just to give completely in with like the generals leg paranoia of like like you completely fucked up

[00:46:39] But who could be mad at me the like it was an assassination attempt. It was great

[00:46:44] And I know it's supposed to up the stakes, but I did laugh that he pulled the pistol right then

[00:46:51] That little pistol he keeps carrying there's like little 38 or whatever. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not a gun person

[00:46:57] Yeah, well me either but then he gets the really big one from claw scary 44 magnum or whatever like the like phallically large

[00:47:08] Uses to crush the candy and I know we're going along here, but I'm sorry

[00:47:12] But Claude acting as a gay man walking a dog killed me. Oh man did it exchange result?

[00:47:18] I'm supposed to pick that up

[00:47:20] the dog and the captain's like

[00:47:22] That's what a civic minded homosexual would do

[00:47:31] There's such good moments in this and although I was a bit of a downer on episode two I did love episode three

[00:47:37] We'll see I'm here. I'm curious because we both had the very same

[00:47:41] Experience watching these back-to-back plane and I thought wow

[00:47:44] This is perfectly pace like both of these episodes are perfectly placed. I have not bored at all

[00:47:49] I feel like it's propulsive. I'm really engaged with what's going on

[00:47:54] Say I loved everything about the third episode in that same way. I loved him going to the party with his lover

[00:47:59] I loved everybody's reaction there the congressman shows up to just show the scarred hand so

[00:48:08] He's like he like makes him read the introduction not as much as the scars that have been inflicted on your

[00:48:15] Country

[00:48:16] We and had to have had in mind John McCain for that role

[00:48:20] The character in the book right or Rob are Bob Dole is it a Bob Dole refer? I don't know

[00:48:24] I almost wonder if he's not thinking of John Wayne a little bit too

[00:48:28] Oh, well just from being in the green berets and being you know kind of ass

[00:48:32] He was people of a certain age who aren't American immediately think John Wayne. Yeah

[00:48:38] Well, that's it for this week find us online

[00:48:40] And go sign up for the newsletter did you a newsletter out this week with some?

[00:48:47] Thoughts and ideas and tips. I got a tip this week about about an app just the tip blame

[00:48:53] Only the tip okay. That's important to me. That's a promise. I make to you

[00:48:59] For Adam and Donovan, I'm Blaine. I'll see y'all well here for I keep saying see y'all we'll hear

[00:49:06] From y'all maybe you'll hear from us next week. I do those things y'all

[00:49:10] You