How 'Train Dreams' Is the Movie of the Year, 'Plur1bus' Needs One Change, and 'Welcome to Derry' May Pull It Together

Hello.

Welcome again to Taking It Down.

Hopefully this isn't your first time to join us, but if so, we are excited to have you.

It's the TV and streaming podcast for the website the Alabama Take.

Each Tuesday we segment off this podcast so that our discussion is some of the TV and streaming and movies without spoilers so you can make a decision on watching it or thinking about it.

And then we take a little break and and we'll try our best to unpack some of the shows or movies we've brought up initially.

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As for this week, it's a great podcast episode.

Our third host is back from making albums and rebuilding his kitchen.

Adam will join us.

Let's get everyone here on the show Alabama Take projection.

Well, what do to my wondering eyes doth appear but Mr. Adam Morrow and no tiny reindeer though.

Still.

But still, we have the wonderfully intelligent Donovan appearance as well.

No, it's fine.

I'm old news.

I get it.

Adam and his musical compadre Jamie Seago now have a hell of a rock and shoegaze album.

It's true.

Under the moniker Sister Ray Davies, brought to you on vinyl by their label, Sonic Cathedral Records.

Head to your.

If it's a good record store, they'll have it.

Head to that place.

Make that purchase for yourself for a holiday treat.

Treat yourself a stocking stuffer.

Possibly con.

Well, kind of.

If you had a large stocking, just.

Put it under the tree.

I'll put a plug in for the vinyl because I got it.

Well, obviously it sounds good, but my wife thought it was gorgeous.

Couldn't believe the the artwork and everything and just loved it.

Like she's like, this is beautiful.

I've never seen.

And she said this is that moron that you used to hang around with in college that has produced such a thing.

Well, it looks good.

I said you had help.

Yeah, I did nothing with the art so I can objectively say it's amazing.

It is beautiful.

And I had a friend of mine describe the album length as polite.

It's A.

It's a polite 30 minutes.

It doesn't overstay its welcome.

Yeah, exactly.

Just a polite 30 minutes.

Number one with the bullet in England.

Catch on, Americans.

Has Netflix reached out to either of you to buy your.

Your home art?

My story?

Your story?

Do they just want my home?

Oh, I don't know.

What do we have that they would want?

But they want everything.

I am a little disheartened with the.

Since we are streaming the news that they're acquiring Warner Brothers.

That's what I'm getting at.

If you look at the, like, internal document who've kind of read the story or followed the story of Netflix, they seem indifferent to, if out, not outright hostile to moviemaking.

Now, occasionally we get the wonderful train dreams that we're going to talk about or Frankenstein or whatever, but most of their stuff is, you know, it's not a surprise.

It's meant to.

It's meant to be.

It's meant to be watched while you do laundry.

Yes.

You know, I did a great Netflix here on here from time to time, but then I will talk about a show from it and say, whoa, it was good and it's 75% miss.

I realize this is kind of funny to say as we're about to talk spoiler.

We're about to talk about a show, a movie that very much is not appropriate for folding laundry.

Right.

You really do have to pay attention to it.

Unless it's a little hanky, for crying.

Fold it up and put it in your pocket before you start it.

Put that handkerchief nearby.

That's just something that they bought a.

Bought a Warner Brothers hbo.

You know, the news is speculating what's going to happen to HBO if this deal goes through.

The inside ification of HBO is going to make me really sad.

Yeah, the rumor.

Well, I say rumor.

The projection is that Ted Serenis admires HBO so much that he wants to kind of leave it be.

He just wants to own it.

Yeah, but isn't that how, like, all these stories kind of start?

Exactly.

I mean, HBO is already, like.

There's a bit of a uproar over how they're treating Mad Men right now because, like, they've missed some of the.

I don't even know how this happens.

Like, they kind of remastered, but also kind of didn't.

So people are showing like, the.

If you owned it on dvd, this frame looks this way versus the way that it now looks on hbo.

I see the guys with the hose.

Yeah, you can see the guys with the hose.

When Roger famously Vomits up the.

The martini and oyster lunch.

I don't know how that happens.

Like they put the wrong file on there.

I don't.

That's what I was trying to understand too.

I am personally a little concerned about what's going to happen to tcm.

You know, there was a.

It was already Rocky under Zaslav when he took over Warner Bros.

Discovery and we saw he was fairly indifferent to HBO as a brand and kind of smashed all the reality stuff in there.

It's a great.

It's one of my favorite things.

I love that they keep the movies going.

I love that they have things that are very timely.

Like they'll have directors and actors and everyone come on to talk about movies and then connect it to like our present day.

I don't think that it's the kind of thing that like you're going to make a billion dollars off of it.

So.

It may be in danger.

You know, we've talked about how Apple may be taking the mantle of the Prestige Channel, so to speak.

You know, I mean, you talking about tcm, it's like, well, Apple is doing that Scorsese doc series right now.

That's just excellent.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, where are these projects going to land?

Like you hope that they still get made and they just go to new places but you know, the people with the means of production not to get all standing on that soapbox but like who's gonna give these people money to do these projects?

This is a side of TV and streaming we usually don't touch on.

We usually leave it to people in the know.

But one of the more interesting face planting propositions I'd seen is that will HBO become or HBO Max become just a tile in Netflix?

That'd be heartbreaking.

I know kind of a lot of.

Hulu in Disney plus someone along those lines just.

Yeah, as long as it maintains its level of prestige.

Put it as a tile, I don't care.

Charge me two more dollars.

It's fine.

There is one, I think bright spot in this is, you know, Netflix is, is.

It's very attentive to the consumer and they really do try and give people what they want.

So I think they're going to release the real ending to the Sopranos where Tony tap dances his way out of the restaurant.

It's good.

Donovan, I'm pretty sure that that's.

Hey, you make that joke.

But HBO did release the Zack Snyder three four hour cut or whatever.

That's true.

We complained enough.

Okay.

Before we get into anything Proper.

I kind of threw that at y' all without previous discussion.

Sometimes we do that.

Does it seem odd to you guys that we're not gonna cover Stranger Things this time around?

Probably.

You know, as we were discussing Netflix, I mean, that's.

That's, like the elephant in the room, right?

Yeah.

Stranger Things, probably their most enduring creation.

I mean, I guess.

Is there anything else on that level that you could argue, like.

Not on that streamer.

Yeah, but I have.

That's Netflix.

Game of Thrones.

Yeah.

I watched Two of the four.

I've seen them all now.

You watch Stranger Things 5?

Yeah.

I didn't think you were gonna.

Well, so this is.

I totally was going to.

I didn't have a real sense of urgency.

And then.

Yeah.

My wife somehow manages to, like.

Yeah.

Manages to watch things that I'm like, when.

When did you find the time to do that?

Of course.

You know, and she's like, well into.

This was weeks ago.

Well into a rewatch of all of the old seasons in preparation.

She ended up watching the last few episodes when I was just, like, in the room, not doing laundry, but, you know, like, passing through, and I kind of got sucked in.

Yeah.

And.

Okay, good.

Adam, let's cover this in non spoilers very briefly, because I didn't know.

Well, the crossover here with our first conversation is, you know, the final piece of this puzzle is gonna go to theater, right?

Yes.

As well.

Like, you don't have to.

Right, right, right.

But that is interesting to see Netflix, to Donovan's point about, like, what do people want?

Attempting to possibly pivot and, like, do do things that are not constrained by what they were.

You know, like Train Dreams had a limited release.

I would have loved to have seen that in theaters.

Didn't give a shame.

This would have been a good one.

Frankenstein did, too.

But them putting.

And I assume that the Stranger Things will have the reach to, like.

It will probably be in the local theater here.

I don't know that for sure, but it just seems likely.

Safe.

Safe bet.

Yeah.

So interesting to see how they.

If the local.

It almost feels like you're talking about community theater.

The local theater is struggling.

Maybe Netflix can throw them a bone, but I don't know.

Maybe you can't see the new reality until it's here as, like, a consumer.

So it'll be interesting.

So I've watched two of the four.

They're gonna split it up.

We talked about this a long time ago.

How.

And I thought it was a nice, smart move.

Put half of it during Thanksgiving, half of it during Christmas.

Brilliant move.

Why not?

But at the time when it hit the streamer, I thought to myself, do I care anymore about Stranger Things?

I watched the first episode Friday night, first episode of season five.

And, and yeah, I do.

It's fun.

It's pretty good.

Episode two, pretty good.

Still fun.

Like they've trimmed the fat from the bone on this season and it's just propulsive.

It's just go, go, go, go, go.

From what I can tell.

Adam, were you digging it?

Yeah, I mean, I think that you, I think in catching some of her rewatch like season one had things to say about childhood and growing up and nostalgia and like kind of did some heavier lifting than they do in subsequent seasons.

And I think once you let go, I've been gone.

I don't know if you guys have talked about my kitchen remodel here.

We have, jokingly, yes, I am here.

Because we ate our first home cooked hot meal since September last night.

So that's where, hold on, I'll insert the applause track.

Big moment, big time moment.

And of course, if listener, if you can't tell, I do have a cold right now.

So forgive my talking through my, my nose here, but Friday we ordered some pizza and it came.

You know, this is like our last, like, we got a limp to the finish line meal.

Before we get this thing fully sorted, we're going to watch Stranger Things.

The hot pizza is delivered.

Yeah.

It's in that like, you know, Domino's has gone back to their vintage looking 80s boxes.

Yep.

And you're like, this is not going to be a nutritious meal.

This is not going to be a meal of any, you know, refined substance, but it's going to be really good.

And as I'm eating one slice of pizza, I'm already going to be thinking about the next one.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

That is, that is what Stranger Things is to me.

But here's the thing.

If they lingered on the thematic stuff we saw in seasons one a little in season two, it would lose the feeling of we're wrapping this up.

We're giving you the last bit.

The heavy thematic stuff was in season one and two and three and now here.

Enjoy.

Right?

And I think it's, I think it's just like I mentioned, to watch the next one right now.

It's, it's pretty good.

So if you haven't watched, if you thought, Jesus Christ, these kids are grown, you know, that's the talking point.

Who cares?

Watch it.

It's good.

You're already suspending disbelief on so much.

Oh, yeah.

You know, you look at them now and you're like, that is.

That is a person with a mortgage.

You know, wheel is.

It seems like my age.

Right.

So there's some of that.

And you know, they do, they do walk around a lot talking about how they feel about things.

Yeah.

You know, like there's.

It's kind of rinse and repeat on some things.

Yeah.

Well, but.

And there's a lot that's still like, like the, the mechanic.

I think we've talked on the show before about, like, the mechanics of how these other dimensions are working are, like, very fuzzy around the edges.

We don't really want to know too much.

And maybe they're giving away a little too much of the game in the newest season.

But I still want to know what's going to happen.

No non spoiler.

But I will say this.

So if you, if you're just itching for no mention of what happens, hit 30 seconds on your app.

There is a short flashback scene in episode two.

And I was appreciative of it and I don't like flashback scenes, but I was like, oh, yeah.

And it hit.

It hit emotionally, it hit an emotional beat that I thought, oh, that's okay.

That works.

And anyway, you two could probably guess why it hit for me especially.

But no spoilers.

The show did bring me the meme of the week because I see on Instagram that the most unrealistic thing about the show is that it's supposed to be set in the 80s and no one's mentioned Larry Bird.

And the creator of the meme says, not looking for a long conversation, but just even a. Y' all see bird put up 42 against the Knicks?

You're telling me a bunch of people from Indiana locked in place aren't completely locked on to Larry Bird's career right now?

Tell yes, 1987.

Dude, I was locked.

I was in Alabama locked in on Larry Bird.

That's a good point.

Let's move on.

Let's move at the speed of a train here.

Maybe still on Netflix.

Going to talk about train dreams.

Of course, we're non spoilers here.

We're going to mention this.

The things that, you know, kind of, kind of loosely, kind of broadly, and then we'll return to them in the back half with deeper thoughts or more specific things.

This is based off the Dennis Johnson nolla of the same name.

The film itself is Joel Edgerton and Felicity Jones, a William H. Macy role as well.

It was adapted and directed by Clinton Bentley, and I think he co wrote it with Ben Quitter Quidar.

Anyway, those two wrote and produced the film Sing Sing as well.

Are you familiar with the Sing Sing?

With the prison film?

Never saw it.

Yeah, I haven't seen it either.

Yeah, it's supposed to be astounding, man.

I haven't seen it anyway.

Maybe worth a note.

It's been a couple weeks since I've watched the film.

I checked it out the Friday it hit the streamer, but I don't think it's faded from my memory too badly.

The three of us have all read the novella Adam and I years ago.

Donovan pretty recently.

Other than fans of the book, though, who's gonna get the most from this movie?

This is a movie that dares to ask.

Here we go.

I've been waiting on this.

Do you like Terrence Malick?

Well, okay.

Is it too Terrence Malicky?

No.

No, I don't think so.

Adam jumps from his seat to assault the stage and say, there's no such thing.

If that vibes with you.

And you're okay with that?

Meditative.

But I'm not.

See, I'm not a Terrence Malik's dude.

But I love the Hell Out.

Then get the hell out of here, Blaine.

Well, I love Train Dreams.

So.

You don't like Malik at all?

I probably haven't seen enough Malik.

The Malik I've seen, I didn't.

I wasn't crazy about, and I thought that that was an unfair comparison for Train Dreams.

Oh, really?

I did, yeah.

What Malik have you seen?

I'm sorry, What Malik have you seen?

Oh, good question.

New World.

And.

Maybe one other that I can't remember.

So you've seen the Thin Red Line?

Yes, that was the other one.

Thank you.

Is that the other one?

I think that there are things in those films that I would argue.

I'm gonna.

We're gonna really have a falling out over Terrence Malick here, but I think that Malick does something really brilliantly that this film kind of does as well, which is it just gives you little moments of no especial significance that are just loaded with meaning because it's part of life, you know?

But I do think those are different.

His later movies are.

Are different enough that they would bear even if you didn't care for those.

They would.

They would bear maybe checking out now.

He did Badlands too, right?

He did do Badlands.

I don't understand how anybody could like movies and not like Badlands in Days of Heaven.

I'm missing Badlands.

I haven't seen Days of Heaven.

Forgive me.

I'm a TV guy.

You got some of this.

Well, you can get the movie on your tv.

I know that.

I know that.

So train Dreams, the movie.

Big love from me.

What about y'?

All?

Thumbs up.

Oh, five stars.

Yeah.

My.

My only.

And this is not the fault of the movie.

My only feeling is that the novella made such an impression on me.

Yeah.

And I read it, Finished it a couple days before I watched the movie.

Yeah.

You didn't have the.

It was constant unfair comparison in my mind.

And I should also say I thought this movie was very, very good.

It's a pretty sincere and close adaptation, though.

It is.

And I was very interested in the things that they didn't necessarily make it over to the adaptation.

There's some things that I thought were really interesting, the novella, but I think the movie as it stands is.

I'm with y'.

All.

It's five.

Five stars.

Joel Edgerton is the best I've ever seen him.

Yes.

And I'm a fan.

And we're fans, I think you and I, definitely.

He has this way in this movie.

I don't almost know how to put this, but he just look like there's.

He just looks like.

Like stuff is just happening to him in the way that stuff just happens to all of us.

And it.

There's.

There's.

I don't.

I can't even put my finger on it, but something about his acting here is.

It's not that he's hapless or tossed about, but it's just like.

Like he's taking what comes to him, and it's really incredible.

Well, we'll give more specific examples in the spoiler section.

Until then, we'll be picking up with Pluribus from famed TV creator Vince Gilligan.

Mainly stars actor Racy Horn as a curmudgeon and fantasy writer who faces down an odd series of events thanks to probably an alien signal, perhaps.

Donovan.

How's.

How's Pluribus and its many mysteries holding up for you?

Pretty good, actually, because it seems to be kind of something new every week, if that makes sense.

Yes.

There's a new little focus each week, it seems.

I agree with that.

And.

And even thematically, too, it feels like there's a new little something every week.

You know, like some weeks, I thought this most.

Without going into spoilers, I thought that this most recent weeks was really good.

Kind of flipping the table on us, keeping me interested.

I feel like I can't say too much.

You can't It's a tough one to talk about without spoilers.

Do you think that I'll say this and you can agree or disagree that people who enjoyed the methodical ways of the characters of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, especially Better Call Saul, if you enjoyed their thinking and their planning and their scheming, then you'll love this show.

Yeah.

So far.

Yes.

Yeah, I agree.

And you had a good specific example for that, I think, a couple weeks back.

Oh, yeah, I think I did too.

Yeah.

That I agree with.

And I think going on past that point, I would continue to agree with that.

Yeah.

It's very well made.

Very well made.

It is very well made and it's very confident, which is kind of.

It's sure of itself as well.

It's very sure of itself.

So.

And it's like, it's good so far.

Like it's pretty good.

There's meaty and there's meaty stuff to chew on and think about.

Thoroughly agree.

And there's a couple of things I'll talk about and not excuse me, in spoilers that I'm not crazy about.

But we'll get there.

Yeah.

And then Donald and I both continue watching.

Welcome to Derry on hbo.

Most listeners probably know it's the prequel to the two IT movies from a few years ago and becoming more and more a centerpiece of the Stephen King universe as it is, at least the television kind of thing.

Here's my question for you, Donovan.

It's a non spoiler question.

What do you make of this thing being front and center for HBO and their coveted Sunday night slot?

People like it.

I don't know.

Does it deserve that place or do you care at all?

I don't particularly care if it was, but if you put a gun to my head and where you're like, is this flag.

This is a Wednesday night show, this is a Thursday night show.

And that's fine.

It's fine.

Yeah.

It might be a better question for Adam, who hasn't watched it.

Does this deserve its Sunday night slot, which is we revere for hbo.

I think is TV watch.

Are you asking me to weigh in?

You can if you want.

You don't have to be honest.

I was.

I was sending a text and didn't.

It's okay.

I want to give a final report on the Netflix series the Beast in Me with Matthew Reese and Claire Danes.

I finished it.

It this is non spoiler stuff.

But I'll just tell you guys and our listeners it was good.

It's quality series up until about the final three episodes where it became way too boilerplate and you could find it that kind of narrative in the thousands of streaming apps we have today.

It's just unfortunate because it sounds like shame.

Yeah, it's what we were talking about earlier with Netflix.

It had a Netflix feel to it in the final three episodes, but not in the first five.

Really unfortunate because Rhys is doing intelligent and great work here and maybe playing another side that no one's seen him play.

And it's good that he got that and he can do that and that he proved it.

Claire Danes is always good.

She might have overdone it just a touch or two here.

The show had potential to do a lot more than it did, and then it just became right down the middle.

Fairly entertaining, but boilerplate stuff.

And one other quick thing before we leave our section here.

I have managed to watch one episode of the Tim Robinson show on hbo, the Chair Company.

Hard to gauge something after only one episode, but if you know Tim Robinson and his work, you might have a little bit of a feel for the series.

I think that anyone who knows Tim Robinson from I Think youk Should Leave.

You might question, okay, does that type of humor sustain a serialized show?

And just from one episode I say, yeah.

And not only that, it works kind of well.

It's zany.

But then there's like this serious plot and you're like, you don't care if one outweighs the other, which they don't.

This is on my watch list, but it's also, I think I have to watch it alone.

Like, I think it will make my wife insane instantly.

No, because I think that this plot on this bit of mystery, I think would, would intrigue her.

We'll see.

She's not, she's not a big fan of.

She's not a big fan of the previous work of Mr. Tim Robinson.

Well, not even, he's not even coffin.

Flop his, his fingerprints all over it.

But the, the premise is that he has a chair fall apart underneath him in a presentation at work and then he starts to investigate why.

And that's just stupid and funny and it works.

We'll take a break here though.

And I definitely got to get the chair company in because I'd like to make my top 10 list for TV this year and I want to see if it lands on that.

So we'll take a break.

You'll hear a little something from, from me about what's going on.

And on the other side is spoilers.

Same order that we mentioned them.

If they're going to be in the spoiler section.

Hey, you could have missed it, but now you'll know on the Alabama Take in the coming weeks will be the best of TV in 2025 list and a lot more.

Be sure to follow the site on social media or even better, subscribe to the newsletter, which recaps what's been happening on the site and its podcast and why One more list?

Do you really need another Best of tv?

Well, the one on the Alabama Take is not going to have a show on there because it's supposed to have it for whatever reason and it's not sponsored by any company or anyone.

So a lot like this podcast.

It'll be real blue collar takes on the best of TV and there'll be even more from 2025 all on the Alabama Take.

Subscribe to the newsletter if you wish.

We'll put a link in the show notes for you to do that.

Let's get back to taking it down.

Okay, let's enter the spoiler section.

We'll give more detailed thoughts to Train Dreams from Netflix, Pluribus on Apple TV and welcome to Derry on hbo.

In that order.

Pay attention to show notes which will have timestamps and you can press on those timestamps and get to write what you want to hear and you won't be spoiled.

Okay, back to Train Dreams.

Movie of note at this year's Sundance Film Festival and Netflix smartly scooped it up bought it stars Joel Edgerton as a laborer in the northwest around 40s, 30s and 40s.

Am I right about the time?

Starts starts kind of adjacent to World.

War I, I believe about 1918.

Ish.

1915.

Late teens.

Thank you.

So yeah, what I mean by labourer he's chopping down trees to build railroads through.

Not just any trees, big trees.

Big un's, huge trees.

The show, the movie could have been called Biggins.

Kind of a misstep for this adaptation.

Dennis Johnson, God rest his soul, he had a.

He should have had me on his shoulder.

Yeah, he's chopping down these trees to build rails through a short spot of land really, considering he sticks to the Northwest.

It's a really short book.

It is a novella.

I never considered it a novella, I guess because it's so short but so epic.

You know, the movie is honestly and the book is honestly a birth to grave story of the life of a man.

But yet it does it in.

A one time sit down read.

And the movie is only an hour and 40 minutes so it's that it's the story of this man, his wife and his child, in a way.

And with that, I'll just start by saying one thing I've always loved is when art celebrates.

Everybody who listens podcast knows what I'm going to say.

Celebrates common life or blue collar or regular people, and then reminds anyone watching that we all have a story that's as rich as anyone else's.

You know, I have a lot of thoughts on that, I think, and kind of the, the strengths of this as an adaptation specifically, but also how simple what you just said is.

But when it's really well done in art, how profound it feels.

Yeah.

You know, like if you say the beats of the story out loud, it's not particularly.

You're like, okay, that sounds interesting.

But then when you read it, it's like a, like a gut punch shot to the heart, transformative kind of experience.

Or at least it was for me.

And it's not even in doing that in a way that's like, oh, yeah, that reminds me of me.

Although I think the three of us are all kind of blue collar somewhat not really laborers, but not me.

We're definitely that middle class.

Donovan's in the intelligentsia, let's be real.

Yeah.

Oh, I got soft hands.

Well, so do.

I don't.

But I do think that we work in a field that is a blue collar and low to mid class.

Ish.

Yeah.

His version of that laborer life is happening at a time when people are living like a modern 20th century life elsewhere.

That's right.

Yeah.

And one of the strengths of film, I think I was texting with actually my old boss when I did TV and film stuff about how beautifully shot this is and kind of the advantages maybe of the visual medium.

You know, those shots when he sees from the train on the bridge that he built traffic.

Yeah.

And in the book you're like, you still think that this is basically like pioneer days.

So if you saw a car, it was like a model T or something, but in fact it's modern traffic, it's stuff we recognize.

And then when he sees a television, you're like, this dude was not only a hard working laborer, he was living at a time where the people doing this work, I mean, across the continent, if he lived in New York, this is an entirely different life this man leads.

I don't know why that struck me so much with the film.

Yeah.

Well, there's something in the novella and the movie that is about how transformative the time period was, how monumental, and yet he is still Robert he is.

Of the same generation.

You know, there's a character dies on Mad Men, and they're trying to eulogize her, and they say she was born in a barn in 18.

Whatever.

And she died in the 50th floor of a skyscraper in Manhattan.

She's an astronaut.

What a man.

And this is.

You know, y' all were saying it could come across as a series of things that happened to this man, but he has more agency than that.

But it's not like, you know, now you can.

You can watch on YouTube or whatever, reality channel, like, people who return to nature, you know, like, they choose to push away modern life and go do this.

This dude just found himself there, you know, doesn't know where he came from.

He doesn't know who his parents are, and goes through life and isn't helpless, but is making the best of the world that he knows.

Yeah, I think that's a good clarification of what I probably meant where it's like, he's not helpless, but like.

Like, he takes the world, like, the world.

He takes it as it comes.

Right.

Like, he's like, the world is still the world.

Right.

In the same way that, like, you know, of the three of us, only one of us talking right now has left the region that they grew up in.

Really?

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like, that's just how life works.

Yeah.

We have agencies, we make money.

We could leave, but, you know, you just kind of keep going through life.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think with.

With train dreams, you know, it's.

It's like he.

He does.

Like, he does do things.

He makes choices, he makes decisions, but also stuff happens.

You know, I used to teach this novella in a contemporary literature class.

Really?

I did.

Yes.

That's interesting.

Did they like it?

I'm.

I'm really curious.

They found it middle of the road, I think, but.

But I think they did enjoy it with my help.

Okay.

I would want a high schooler to read, but at the same time, I would not expect a high schooler to understand.

Well, to have.

And not even like a language thing or, like, it's like, how do you.

I think the classics can open up a young reader in a lot of way.

Like, blow their mind and, like, show them expand the horizon line.

What do you kind of have to have some experience to bring to this one, maybe.

Well, it's the same case with.

With the Great Gatsby or To Kill a Mockingbird.

You can't get those thematic elements, those gut punch thematic elements until you've tried to achieve a dream or, or you've had children.

You know, I'd tell my students then, though, it's right there in the title, Train Dreams.

It is a book about differences.

It's a book about juxtapositions.

It's the differences that you can find in a small piece of earth.

There's vitality and horror in common.

Normal land, that's 10 square miles.

It's about the differences in two generations when the world is changing and mankind is changing and it's just about.

One is tangible and one is abstract and they coexist.

And I would.

How can something be beautiful and violent?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would say that.

Train Dream.

I think it's a beautiful title.

We were joking about the title earlier.

I think it's wonderful.

Train is the movement.

It's the.

It's there.

It's what he's doing, hands on.

And then the dreams you can't touch.

And some people never get to touch them.

The scene that Adam pointed out with him on the train looking at traffic too, just really.

I know that this is like overly literal, but like, like that part of it too, with like the trip with him on the train and the things that he's built, you know, like the traffic and everything up tv, it still seems somewhat insubstantial.

Well, he sees both of these things through glass.

Yeah, exactly.

They're happening somewhere else.

Exactly.

And I just thought that scene that Adam brought up I really, really, really liked.

Well, you know, they show that scene very early on.

Yeah.

They show it again later, which I thought was interesting.

Smart choice.

It's a beautiful one.

Let's talk about the voiceover.

The voiceover.

Will Patton.

Will Patton.

I'm a fan.

He does the audiobook as well, if you haven't.

No way.

Oh, interesting.

It's great.

Dude, that makes me want to listen to that man.

What a calm presence and a way to offer a little bit of insight on Robert Granger.

Voiceover, I understand.

Can be big swings to utter strikeouts.

Yeah, they can be home runs or strikeouts here, though.

Will Patton, it's almost.

His voice is the land and the earth that Granger inhabits.

And I think that it was a good call.

It feels like this could be really heavy handed, but it's not.

And I think you're right, Blaine, where.

It'S almost like we're getting someone with a perspective from outside of time or who's seen a lot of time past.

You feel that kind of sense of deep time in the perspective that's Being brought forward in a way that could have easily gone off the rails.

And in this case, it did not.

It absolutely adds to.

I think if it was taken out of the movie, something really important would be lost.

There's this great.

I want to go.

I'm sorry to jump back, but, you know, there's this quote that.

And I wrote it down where the guy says to Granger and his team, I know it ain't the great pyramids of Egypt, but I think you boys have done something pretty darn incredible.

And then Patton's voiceover negates that impressive.

Many years later, a bridge made of concrete and steel would be built 10 miles upstream, rendering this one obsolete.

And that.

That's the pivotal.

That's it.

Here's this wonderful thing that could have never been made manifest until you put hands to work.

And then a few years later, it's the most unimportant thing ever.

But, I mean, you had to build that one to get the next one.

Oh, yeah.

Which ties to what I think is one of the lines of the film, not to jump too far here, but when they're talking on the fire tower and she tells him everything's a part of the forest, even the dead trees.

Yeah, I'm paraphrasing there, but it's like, man, that.

Or even the.

You know, things that you don't get, you get them in literature.

But again, just the subtle visual language of a ruined landscape.

At one point, post fire slowly becoming a normal landscape again, you know, he lives to see all of this.

It's like, man, this is wild.

A ruined landscape.

Post team of workers chopping it down.

We've seen too.

Yeah.

Or the great.

When he finds the boots again all those years later.

That was a great scene.

Which is shown twice too, at the very beginning.

Yes.

To me, the movie and the book are both about.

There's just amazement and wonder in a life most would cast aside as quote, unquote, normal there.

Or even tragic or.

Yeah, yeah.

Or yes, the other side of the coin.

Because there's these constant profound moments of love, of death, of change, of wonder, of creation, of stillness.

And I can't appreciate the book in the movie any more than I.

Than I have.

I. I think that there is something.

Watching and reading this.

There is something akin to.

To the experience of listening very deeply to another person tell something that is important to them, tell something about their life.

I think some of us have experienced this with grandparents.

Or parents.

But, Blaine, I think you made a point that I agree with earlier.

Where you said it's not because it reminds you of yourself, but there's something really, if you've ever had the experience.

I've had it with students, for example, where somebody shares part of their life with you and it's utterly different from your experience, but it gives you that reminder that we're all so much bigger than just what we see in front of us.

I think feel like it was akin to that, where you almost can't sum it into word.

Sum it up into words.

Well, it addresses too, that death will.

Leave you forgotten in a way, but in the.

I think in the, like, Zen way of viewing that much more than.

Yes, yes.

You know, like.

When you return to this.

This thing that's greater than you.

I mean, that scene where he's in the plane at the end is just like, man, this is so good.

You know, I always.

I recommend this book to pretty much anybody who will let me recommend literature to him because it's.

It's short enough that I think people can get through it and impactful enough that if you are available in any way, it'll knock you over and always forget that.

It's, you know, like I've told people, and they.

They come back and they're like, it was so sad, you know, And I. I forget how much tragedy there is in it, I think, because I'm always left with that.

That overwhelming feeling of, like, the beauty of the landscape that he's in or that.

That feeling at the end of, like, oh, I'm a part of this.

This cosmic dance, you know?

Yeah.

I think moving, you know, that's one of the changes the movie made.

I wouldn't change anything about the book, so I'm not even gonna talk about that.

But putting that plane ride right at the end.

Yeah, I think did a really good job of something that the novella does, which is kind of dislocating you in time.

And it makes it feel, the narrator, like.

It's almost like a moment out of time when there's this really.

This really deep synthesis and understanding about life and the world and your place in it and what's happened and what hasn't happened.

And I thought it was really gorgeous.

Okay, so correct me and Donovan, you might be better with this one.

Does the novella end with the plane or does the novella not end with the boy from the quote unquote, freak show?

Yeah, it does not end with the plane.

The boy.

So they switched them.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Donovan, you are the freshest on this.

What other changes were made that you may have A problem with or you thought were improvements or whatever.

Was the lady at the fire tower in the book?

No, that's added.

Which I thought was nice.

She was a nice touch.

The supernatural was somewhat downplayed.

I thought it was really interesting how the super extra natural is part of the book and is just sort of a way, like, not.

It's not like, oh, this guy's so dumb or whatever.

Like, it's not even questioned.

It's just part of the way he understands his experiences.

And I was extremely grateful that they did not.

Like, one of the things that really did kind of break my heart is in.

In the book is when his wife comes back to him and tells about how she died.

And I mean, I could.

I. I just could not imagine.

Like, that's knowledge.

You would never want to know.

Right.

Like, never ever, ever would you want to know how that happened.

And that made me very sad.

And I thought it was.

It was good in the.

In the movie, but I felt that there was an extra layer of detail that was kind of left out in.

That really broke my heart in the book that wasn't necessarily there.

And that was another area too, where I think the supernatural sort of comes and intervenes.

Because, you know, in the book, it's very clear that it's really sad.

Like his wife can't get any rest, at least as he understands it, that she's.

Her spirit can't.

It's lost.

And she's looking for.

She's looking for Kate.

She's looking for the child that she lost.

And I mean, it's like I have a little niece who's just learned to crawl.

And there's a little bit in that about how the.

All the mom can do is open.

She's got the baby with her.

All she can do is open up where she's been holding the baby in her.

Her dress or her clothes and let the baby crawl and live for a little while longer.

And it just breaks your heart because that's just what, like, anyone who's ever been around a little baby like that, you know, that's.

Yeah.

You want to keep them as safe as possible, and sometimes you can't.

Anyway, that wrecked me, and I was.

It made me sad in the movie, but the.

Not the novel, it just.

It wrecked me.

There's the voiceover line.

I think it's the.

The line of the year in a movie.

And though he didn't know it then, he had always looked back on this time in his life as his happiest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I watched this movie.

It got to the end as soon as the credits rolled, depending on how long you count a beat.

I took a full two beats and I just immediately started crying.

But it took a second to.

Took a couple of seconds to wash over me.

I think it's very cathartic, but I wouldn't go so far as to, you know, like, in the.

Like the classic, like, why do we read King Learo?

Because it's catharsis.

Like, I wouldn't.

I'd say it's cathartic without.

And there's tragic tragedy, but it's not tragic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's.

Well, it goes back to the old question, can there be tragedy if, you know, they don't.

They're not on top of the world and have that downfall?

Sure, yeah, I suppose.

He.

He was on the top of his own world.

He was the king of his own world.

He had his house, he had his everything.

He had his little land.

Right.

There is a fall.

It's not due to his hubris or anything.

It's not necessarily due to his hubris or arrogance.

Although you could trace it back to, you know, humanity intervening with the forest.

Right.

Or I mean, he is constantly shown.

They do a good job of this in the film.

To question, like, did me not saving that guy on the bridge that day?

Yeah.

I love how that guy honed.

Yeah.

Was he in some way, his fate was damned or tied to pay for that?

Now, that was another interesting change, you know, because in the book, he does not die, he escapes.

Oh, that's right.

But he still.

He still haunts him.

Yeah, but I thought.

And it is.

It's almost maybe a little bit more conventional because in.

In the movie.

Because obviously they do kill the laborer, and that's horrible.

Whereas in the book, he's more haunted by the.

Like, I had every intention of killing this man or helping to kill this man, even though it didn't happen.

I had the.

Like, I basically.

I did it in my heart, so to speak.

Like, I would have happily thrown him off and watched him die.

He felt the violence within himself.

Yeah, exactly.

That's an interesting change.

If you're the.

It's an interesting change.

Right.

And they physically choreographed that scene to where.

If you don't know the book.

I don't know.

I think you're supposed to be left with not knowing if he was trying to intervene for help.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Because he could have been trying to grab the guy's leg.

Right.

To, like, say, no, we're not doing this and the guy, of course, kicks away because why would you not kick out, man?

He asked two or three times, well, what did he do?

Well, what did he do?

As if to say, if he did something bad enough, I'll help.

Right.

And, you know, there's a few times where you.

I think maybe a lens is held up to, like the forging of the American spirit, you know, like that they were judge, jury, and executioner was taking place in real time right there.

And who was gonna, who was gonna stop that?

Yeah, I agree with that.

We could go on and we may need to stop soon.

But I hate, I hate to stop without mentioning William H. Macy's character, who is also a product.

Fantastic.

Did you want to say anything about him or his performance or even some of that dialogue, which I thought was rich.

I thought that the RogerEbert.com review said they gave him a snack and he made a meal.

Like, how could you say it better than that?

It's truly one of the finest roles that he's ever done.

William H. Musey.

And he's got 10 minutes of green time, maybe 15.

I mean, it's just like he makes an indelible impression, at least upon me, the viewer, in a way that makes you understand, like, he made an impression on Granger's life.

And I think there's that extra element of, like, you know, sometimes it's folks, we're not around for a huge.

You never know who's going to, what's going to stick with you and who's going to.

Wow.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's the impression I got.

And I felt they, they, they did that.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if he's nominated for.

Oscar.

Even though it's a brief appearance.

I'd give some folks in here an Oscar.

Yeah, an Oscar nod, for sure.

I think, you know, the obvious thing is that he's.

I'm gonna use the phrase again, holding a mirror up to the life choices of everyone there, of, like, can you be an old man and be out here?

You know, like, what, what does life.

You know, it's such a.

The old phrase, like, animals usually don't die of old age in the wild, you know, and like, these folks are living like one step removed from that kind of life.

So what is the long term plan?

And again, Blaine, you said how much changes generation and generation, how the grandchildren of these people, you know, lived in the suburbs, possibly.

Yeah, very strange.

I feel like we should, we should shout out the cinematographer here.

Oh, my gosh.

And I'll also.

I know.

I learned after watching this that I think it's Bryce Destner from the national who did the score, which I thought was beautiful.

Nice.

Very.

So I think the score and the cinematography.

The cinematographer was so well together.

Adolfo Veloso, I believe is.

How is he famous for anything we've seen?

He's still a pretty young guy.

He worked.

Wow.

Good for him.

Worked with the director on his first feature length.

Edit this out.

Clint Bentley.

That's right.

Yeah.

They had collaborated before on Jockey.

Oh.

Oh, yeah.

But they.

There's some interesting points.

There's a great.

I think Variety made a video interview with him where he kind of ran things down and gets pretty in the weeds about like.

We used this camera for this reason, I think.

I think you guys would enjoy it.

But said they shot 99% of it with natural light.

Wow.

That does frost me.

It's not only a pressure on him, but that means that all of those acting performances there is a.

If you want the sunset or you want the specific lens flare, whatever.

Yeah, you better get it in four or five tries.

Yes.

Wow.

All of those, I think, amazing performances were.

We're kind of done with that.

Restriction burden.

However you want to view that.

Urgency.

Urgency.

Yeah.

And apparently they studied old photographs.

Oh, really?

With the idea that the story is almost like a connected series of snapshots.

And so he said they felt like they were putting motion to these old logging photographs that they found from the era, which is why it's in 3.2 aspect ratio.

I see it.

I see it.

That's pretty cool.

And that.

And I think they were successful.

Yes, I would agree.

Absolutely.

Man.

I did not know that about the takes, though.

That is incredible because so much of this is like.

Yeah, they're absolutely getting like specific light for it.

I can't imagine doing that kind of work under those kind of conditions.

I mean, my goodness.

Well, Edgerton's good.

Clearly.

They're good.

Yeah.

As is Felicity Jones.

And Felicity Jones is really good.

Everyone is.

This movie was good.

Yep.

We recommend it.

Like I said, we could say more.

Hit us up online, email us, we'll say more.

But instead we'll just shift gears.

There is an odd connection to Train Dreams and Pluribus, I think, you know, Train Dreams alludes to.

We are kind of connected.

Yeah.

And the Imploribus shows us.

Oh, that might not be a good thing in the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're back this week to talk about some Pluribus and Donovan's back with us again.

So of course.

That's the Vince Gilligan show on Apple tv.

You're in.

Spoilers.

Be careful.

I have a strong and maybe controversial take coming out.

Okay.

Right.

I think the show could have used another protagonist.

Really?

Okay.

Since Carol's.

The audience is surrogate.

That's huge.

That's important.

If she wasn't the.

If she was the protagonist but not the audience surrogate, I think we could.

I could live with this.

It's a.

Just a bit of a bummer to have someone who's not curious as to what's going on in a way that's more fascinated and less abrasive about it.

I do understand she's grieving.

She hasn't even fully processed that grief.

It hasn't even fully hit her.

But she's aloof as a character, and not just to other characters, but even at times to the camera.

I think that's a part of the performance.

It's purposeful.

It's almost like Carol doesn't even want us viewers to be there, much less the aliens.

And that's such a controversial take for me as a.

Because I thought she was so inviting in Better Call Saul, she had witnessed and bite and charm here.

I don't think.

Here she's got wit and bite.

I just don't think Carol's a charming protagonist.

No.

I don't think she has a lot of charm necessarily.

Although I do think, like you said, that this is intentional because I think that she is literally closed off from other people and.

Which is, of course, a huge counterpoint to the consciousness that exists on Earth now.

Right.

Yeah.

I just have so many questions.

I want her to consider that she does it.

And I know that's forcing things on the show that's not there.

Which is something we try never to do.

But that's my point.

Yeah.

The sooner she gets a regular human cohort, I think the better the show will be.

Which leads us into our most recent episode.

It'll go from a very interesting show to possibly one of those Gilligan esque great ones or at least will have that potential if and when she meets up with the guy from Paraguay.

Yeah, we'll see how it goes.

Yeah.

He hasn't.

He has a name, but it might be out of my reach to pronounce.

Mana Sus.

Yeah, something.

So episode six is.

HDP does go away to help show Carol in a more lonely light.

But then she's contrasted with the dirty Frenchman.

This is my.

I always say that because.

Ignore McDonald.

I don't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So People of France, it's just a.

Sorry, what's it?

Kumba.

Yeah, I said his name, now he's a creep.

But let me tell you something.

In this episode, he grew on me.

I was survived.

I get it.

I would, yeah, I might live a little of that life if I was him.

I mean, it is kind of like you watch, you watch the scenes and you're like, yeah, like if there was something basically invested in catering to my every whim, like, that might not be such a bad way to live out the rest of your life.

Yeah.

Sometimes I wish for it.

It does.

Want to question, would we like getting everything we wanted?

What value do we have as individuals?

I think that's answered.

Many philosophical and spiritual traditions have seemed to maintain that getting what you want at exactly the second you want it is possibly not good for you for your long term growth and development.

Well, I'd like to try.

I would say.

I'll give it a good test.

You know, we kind of answered some of this in our previous discussion with trained dreams.

Even the ordinary has beauty and meaning.

But I would argue there's something of value in the way the dirty Frenchman views our world.

Now that he believes he has it made.

What did you make of Kumba imitating Carol as she eats breakfast there that he's made for her?

Is that a nod to say he's growing tired of all the yes men and women?

Maybe.

Yeah.

I mean, he's more.

He definitely wants his old life to come back.

He does, you think?

Oh, no, no.

I mean his old life as in the, the, the, the, the unity.

To come back and, and hang out with him again because, you know, they're staying away from Carol, so he's kind of like, like, you know, when she's like joking about staying with him, he looks like, kind of horrified.

Yeah.

But, you know, but there's this sense of like, okay, maybe he's not, maybe he's not that he's like, he's.

Maybe he's kind of a go along to get along kind of guy.

Right.

It could be that there's nothing, you.

Know, he's not a bad guy.

Like, he's, he's nice to Carol.

He cooks her breakfast.

No, I thought he was a complete creep the first time in the second episode.

Oh, yeah.

No, I mean in this episode, in.

This episode, nice to Carol, gets her.

Breakfast, has some connection with the other people.

Yeah, he had.

Well, I'll say it again.

He had some charm in this episode rather than creepiness.

The cliffhanger from episode Five.

Didn'T work for me as a cliffhanger.

It made me want to watch the next episode.

So maybe I should correct myself.

But it's just that we all knew what was going to be in storage of the food factory.

Well, and that's where I thought it was kind of great.

Like, this was something where, like, I kept.

As we were firing it up, I kept, you know, like, saying to my life, like, did you know Soylent Green is people?

Like, we all guessed, you know?

So I actually thought it was kind of brilliant for them to be, like, kumbay.

To be like, yes, we know that they're eating, you know, human.

What do they call human derived protein or hdp, Right.

Yeah.

And it's because they're like, they're starving to death.

Yeah.

And, like, as soon as that, like, twist was in, it was in there, I was like, okay, this is.

This is super.

This continues to be super interesting because, like, what are these people created for?

You know, I had kind of speculated, like, okay, they can't lie.

They're gonna try and accommodate you and everything.

Like, what are they?

This can't have just evolved, right?

Like, any animal that wasn't even able to, like, take an apple off a tree, right.

Eat grass, much less hunt, like, you would never survive, right?

So, like, these things have to be made, and they have to be made for a purpose.

Maybe.

I thought.

I was fascinated by the flip there, where it's like, yeah, we're.

We're just like, yeah, we're eat.

We're eating people because, you know, we're starving otherwise.

Yeah.

I dumped cold water on her reveal.

That was kind of funny.

John Cena popping up on the video just made me laugh for I don't know what re.

It was just hilarious.

It was like.

Like, we just got like, hey, I'm John Cena.

I'm gonna explain to you about hdp.

Yeah, he was perfect.

He was good.

So, yeah, even though I was as soon I was.

I'll be honest, Blaine, I kind of was.

I don't think disappointed is the right word, but when she goes to the Warehouse and it's full of bodies, it's like, you said, we know what it is.

Yeah.

I just think.

And so the little twist, I was like, this is really it.

Like, this entity is like, you know, the constant question keeps being like.

Is this really the apocalypse?

And, you know, as Carol points out, it is doing this to itself.

You know, like, take an apple off a tree.

But also, it almost gets down to, like, this very basic question.

Of life, which is like most things that exist, exist at the expense of something else.

Unless you're, you know, a plant that's.

That's just absorbing sunlight.

Right.

And using photosynthesis.

Most animals exist at the expense.

They've got to eat plants, They've got to eat other animals.

Yeah.

You know, what is life in existence?

Is it okay for my dog to be my pet but have to exist on the slaughtered, you know?

You know, they can't eat anything that's not meat.

They have to eat slaughtered animals or hunt for themselves.

They can't help it.

It's not bad.

Yeah, good.

Those are interesting questions.

I just want to know what they want.

Like, I can't believe he hasn't blatantly asked them.

What do you want, though?

Yeah, well, I mean, they've kind of danced around that where it seems like what they want is to assimilate all of humanity.

Now, what they want past that point, what they're going to do past that point, that's for what?

That's the question.

And now we know that they're.

In 10 years, they're going to have millions of people are going to starve to death.

Yeah, they very well could after this.

After this integration.

I'm just saying it would have been more suspenseful, I think, if you.

At the end of episode five, you didn't have her in shock, but you.

The camera panned to show the head.

Now that's a. Yeah.

You're like, fuck a head, you know, I don't know.

I'm not a filmmaker.

Don't ask me.

I will say that the guy.

The guy from Paraguay, Mana.

Well, how would you say his name?

Manusos, I think.

But I don't.

I'm not.

I know.

I'm not pronouncing it right.

However, the guy from Paraguay, Manusos.

Hitting the road.

I think that's a very interesting narrative concept.

He finally.

He encounters someone, and it's his own mom.

Yeah.

That was in the shadows.

It was as scary as the show's been.

Yes.

Plus, even though she's much more kind, he despises that she's one of the alien others.

Yes.

So her smile feels deadly.

He.

He is of, I think, even more than Carol.

He's in the middle of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Oh, yeah.

You know.

Yes.

And Carol.

Carol's in the middle of it.

But, like, he won't even talk to them.

You know, she'll eat their food.

She'll talk to them.

I'm very.

Yeah.

I thought that was we knew it was coming.

I've kind of liked.

This is just little stuff, but I do think it kind of adds to the suspense where it's like, okay, what we're seeing of Carol is like, day 12.

What we're seeing with him is day nine.

So we know that there's.

They're kind of.

They're moving to a convergence.

Yeah.

You know, I just hope that's not the end of the season, them finally meeting.

Yeah, it is kind of the.

I think a show like this is tricky where, you know, it is the mix between, like, if you tell me too much, it is.

Almost analogous to or analogous to.

It might be bad for me, the viewer, to get all the answers that I want instantly.

Right.

Like, there's the balance between the dirty Frenchman.

Exactly.

Like there would be.

But there's a balance between, like, okay, drawing it out.

Drawing it out.

Drawing it out, too.

That, you know, that frustrates you in the other direction.

So it's a balancing act.

Gilligan usually finds the right balance.

Based on his past work, he seems like he knows how to make entertaining TV over multiple seasons.

Yeah, it's certainly engaging.

No doubt about it.

I'd be interested to see if any of the regular 12 who are left take up the alien others on this painful transformation.

Well, the mother in India sure seems so supportive of her family, being under their sway.

I wonder if she is that supporting.

Like, are you?

Yeah.

Level.

We did have one of the.

Keep wanting to call them survivors, but one of the individuals who had said that she's ready to join them.

She wants to be with her sister, I think it was.

Oh, yeah.

And we'll see.

Maybe she's gonna.

Probably hurt's pretty.

It's probably like.

It feels like a spinal tap.

Right?

Sure.

I imagine you never hurt ever again.

Right.

Speaking of joining, Carol makes mention that she has eggs frozen in a. I think it was the second episode with the Ice hotel.

Yes.

That might be a way for her to become one of the others without going the route of the needle to the hip.

But will they do that?

What would you lose if she does become one of them?

I don't know.

I'm still not certain the direction the show is going and what's supposed to make of it heading there, which is.

I feel like this.

And this is.

This is more compliment than not Like, I kind of feel like I've had a little bit of the rug pulled out from under me with every episode, and it's almost.

And it becomes interested in different things thematically, but Not.

Not in a way that feels scattered and directionless.

It doesn't.

But really interesting as a total, as a whole.

Yeah.

Does it?

What?

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you said something else.

Does it lose its thematic idea as a whole, though, in each episode with it doing that?

No, I don't think so.

Because I think it's.

It's kind of aspects of this big, high concept idea that it then will kind of like, drop in, like.

And what it is kind of doing a good job of, like, what if society changed this profoundly?

Yeah.

There's going to be so many facets of change it.

They still add up to the totality of what it is.

When I think about it being a anti AI piece of art, I get a little too confused on why does that fit with it.

So I should be more open about its ideas.

Yeah.

I don't think it's.

I don't think it's.

I don't think it's.

It's nailed down quite that easily.

At least not yet.

Yeah.

We might need to see the whole first season.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's also take another step back and to the disturbing town of Derry with HBO's it prequel.

Welcome to Derry, where the bad side of this place may be rubbing off on Major Leroy.

Looks like, you know, he's.

He's a little less in control of.

Himself, a little less patient.

Yep.

Hank gets a hiding place.

Dick is seeing the dead after years of keeping that away from himself.

Yep.

Ingrid Kirsch has some daddy issues.

Yep.

Gotta say, I'm really wanting to know what the dead people have to say that we wouldn't want to know.

What a great line from Dick's character there.

I am almost.

I think it's a great line.

I agree with you.

I think it's one of those things, too, that's like.

It's like, don't tell me.

Don't tell me.

Don't tell me.

Yeah.

Don't tell me that.

Don't tell me what it is.

It's scary as he is.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Because it's.

It's.

I mean, it's the.

The unknown.

Right?

Yeah.

No, I don't think they'll tell it.

I just thought it was such a great line.

No, I thought it was good, too.

It does allow me to say that Chris Chalk does a good job carrying a bound as a deeply troubled guy with this.

Shining, you know, this seeing dead people thing.

All the acting on the show I think is really good, which helps keep some of the more sillier narrative choices Belted a little.

But Chris Chalk, though, he's in this series, he proves that he is a varied actor.

He can make varied choices as an actor.

In a way, he's.

Or at least for me, kind of one of the grounding presences of the show, which I think is really interesting, seeing as he's the guy who can sense things, get in your head and see dead people.

Exactly.

But yet he's the most realistic of the people.

I mean, Leroy's.

He's kind of just like.

Yeah, he's just kind of like, it is what it is.

You know, I've got this power.

I have to take life as it comes to me.

Yeah, he plays it well.

Kudos.

Very well.

I. I hadn't remembered really.

I'm sure I've seen other things with him, but I hadn't remembered really seeing him in anything until Perry Mason.

And I thought he was very good and I was pleased to see him again here.

And gosh darn it, he might be better here than in Perry Mason.

And it's funny because the.

It is.

Welcome to Derry.

It is the it prequel.

Yeah.

You know, it does lack some serious tone that we're.

It's not a prestige show by any means.

I mean, maybe.

Maybe it kind of wants to be, but, I mean, it's.

You know, it's.

It's got a little bit of the Goonies in there and it's got a.

You know what I mean?

It kind of wants to be, and then it kind of realizes it doesn't.

And that's a question to be a.

Little back and forth.

I'll agree with you on that.

Lily gets the intel from Ms. Kirsch herself that her dad was, I suppose, the first version of Pennywise, so to speak.

He was what this entity decided to take on as a visage.

Yeah.

Most of its time in Derry.

Those images of the father were creepy.

I thought fit well with the tone the show wants to have.

But I don't know that I needed to have all these details of the IT entity.

You know, we know that it's a space.

Something probably extrasolar, extra dimensional.

Yeah.

We know it took on the appearance of Pennywise years ago.

And we know that Ingrid Kirsch has some connection to it beyond the entity reminding her of the father she loved.

Now, is she.

She's kind of under control of it, right?

Am I getting it?

Either that or she's just insane.

Okay.

Like, she's.

She's.

I mean.

Cause she's making truly horrific for something that she knows is really not her father, but, you know, she adored her father.

She wants to see something that reminds her of her father.

And she's completely fine with, like, you know, it's got to eat some kids if I'm gonna have that happen.

She's playing the role of the female clown.

Are you familiar with this character?

No, not at all.

Yeah, me either.

So I'm.

I'm a bit curious after that last episode.

I'm a little curious to see where it's gonna go.

I haven't decided yet.

I think I'm gonna have to see more of it because I kind of haven't feel like I haven't decided how I feel about the Ingrid stuff.

If they tie it back with.

With her father and everything into it in a really interesting and compelling way.

But I'm like, I understand that, like, the clown chose to look like or the entity chose to look like a creepy clown.

Like, I understand that.

I understand that.

Yeah, we got, you know, I don't know, maybe it'll be really good female clown.

Not sure.

So there's this idea in welcome to Derry that no one dying really dies in Derry specifically, if that goes explored.

If they do explore that, that could be really horrific and fascinating.

Both Ms. Kirsch has said it and Dick lives it.

So, you know, what is it that dead have to say?

Why do they linger?

What's that say about Derry?

What's that say about the kids there or anywhere?

I don't know if the show wants to answer those questions or not, but if so, I think that could improve my judgment.

Although I do enjoy watching it.

It's just not.

I agree with you, Blaine.

I think that there is a lot of stuff in here that could be very interesting and even thematically resonant.

Exactly.

I do not think I might be wrong, but I do not think that the show that I have watched six episodes of really wants to dig in that deep.

Probably not.

You know, which is fine.

Right?

Like, I'm kind of watching it, you know, it's not bad.

It's not great.

It's not bad.

There's usually something in there that will kind of.

I'll kind of enjoy for one bit.

Even if it's just creature stuff.

Like when the clown finally reveals himself, I was like, oh, that was weird and creepy.

Okay, I like that.

Yeah.

On this podcast, you and I particularly have pointed out that horror and science fiction are really great gateways to uncover the more in depth things about life, yet still be a mode of entertainment.

Oh, for sure.

And you're right.

I don't know if this show wants to be just.

I'm not sure how interested it is in that.

So we'll see next week.

We'll have Ingrid next week.

I say it's actually tonight.

We record on Sunday.

Some of y' all have probably seen Sunday's episode as we release on Tuesday.

But so coming up, we're gonna have Ingrid and I guess her clown costume heading to where these horrible white guys are intending to punish Hank for what they think he did as the crime that he didn't commit of killing kids.

Since she's the lady who was a with Hank initially, you know, I think she should take one for the team here and admit she's to blame for this mess.

That might.

Well, it's going to rebound on poor, poor Hank.

No matter what happens.

I think so.

And how involved will Dick B.

In this whole bar room showdown?

Don't know.

Yes.

So it has us interested.

Does it warrant our week to week discussion?

I don't know.

Sometimes it zigs and it's interesting and sometimes it zags and it's like, I saw the Goonies.

Like I get.

Does look really good.

It's well produced and it's.

Well does look really good.

It's got some great acting.

It's just the narrative choices.

It seems like everything we talk about on here boils down for me with the riding, you know, like, what side of the fence is the riding?

I think you said it earlier plane in this episode.

Maybe it was last week, but I think you said it earlier today that it is.

There is a little bit with it where it's just like tonally, it'll kind of be.

Yeah, you said it today where it'll be like, oh, it's trying.

And then it'll kind of be like.

But the show we really are is this.

And it'll kind of swing between, you know, the mode, the feeling.

It'll oscillate a little like too far one way.

You think not.

Maybe not even too far.

But it's like, okay, is this like, what kind of show is this?

There's just.

It feels.

Which I think is just a roundabout way of me saying I think it's kind of an inconsistent show.

I agree.

I think a show that gets this a little better and more consistently is Stranger Things, which we talked about in the non spoiler.

Yeah, it's funny too.

You know, we.

We had mentioned, you and I, but this.

I had the same thought at the first episode.

Like, wow, this is just like Stranger Things and It's, you know, it's.

It's the genealogy somewhat works the other way and that, you know, Stranger Things is inspired by this.

But now this, you know, coming after Stranger Things is now inspired and working off the collective memory we have of Stranger Things.

Right.

Which was inspired by the.

The Goonies, which was, you know, Keep going.

Yep.

Of course, you know, the body, Stand By Me, you know, stuff that Stephen King wrote.

Of course.

Right.

Stranger Things is heavily indebted to King.

Yeah, for sure.

In some ways, Stranger Things is it, you know, not completely, but there's a big element of.

It's it.

Yeah.

Well, watching those first two episodes of Stranger Things 5, I've taken that into consideration.

I talked, I think, to myself, oh, yeah, this is borrowing the.

You know, there's this.

The Vecna character versus the entity of it.

The Pennywise.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That brings us to the end of our episode, though.

We.

We had a great time today and it was a little longer, but we hope you enjoyed it.

For Adam and Otto, and I'm Blaine, we hope that your life is as enjoyable.

This week is an open airplane ride.

Yeah.

Talk to everyone next Tuesday.