Previewing 'Baby Reindeer'; Plus, Hot Chemistry in 'Shōgun' and a Promising 'Sympathizer'

[00:00:00] It's time for Taking It Down. We're a podcast amongst many in the Alabama takes family

[00:00:04] You'll hear from me in just a minute, but first we have a podcast that might interest you give it a listen

[00:00:11] Hey, this is Jeremy from Polyphonic Press

[00:00:14] Along with my co-host and best friend John van Dyke

[00:00:17] We are exploring classic albums completely at random at the top of each show

[00:00:22] We have no idea what album we're going to be listening to

[00:00:25] We have the patented random album generator to give us an album

[00:00:29] Sometimes it's an album we're very familiar with and sometimes it's an artist

[00:00:33] We have never heard of either way

[00:00:35] It gives us a chance to really listen to these classic releases and gives us insights that we may never have thought of before

[00:00:41] For something to come out of maybe he needed the other Beatles in the room at that time

[00:00:46] Well, I think so and I think if you if you watch that Peter Jackson documentary from from a few years ago

[00:00:54] about

[00:00:56] The let it be sessions. I think you know, it was kind of the writing was on the wall

[00:01:01] I mean they were breaking up John Lennon didn't sign the papers to officially dissolve the Beatles until 1974

[00:01:09] So if this sounds interesting be sure to follow Polyphonic Press on Apple podcasts

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[00:01:52] We'll get them to the right people. I'm good. I've been crushing tape for this week's podcast

[00:01:57] Just killing it just show after show. I'm about to talk to you in brief without spoilers about three

[00:02:05] baby reindeer

[00:02:06] Gonna return to sugar from Apple TV plus and

[00:02:10] Under the bridge from Hulu it may actually be a little longer than usual episode

[00:02:14] But only slightly for even more though get on that newsletter sign up

[00:02:20] Why don't you the alabama take comm slash?

[00:02:24] Newsletter and you know, we don't spoil anything until later

[00:02:27] And it's only show gun and the sympathizer this week those two we will talk at length about and

[00:02:34] The episode specifics, but that's that's much later. We'll use timestamps and you can click on those

[00:02:42] chapter designations if you like

[00:02:45] Need them. How about this new Netflix series baby reindeer, huh?

[00:02:49] Have you seen it? I was on the fence about starting it

[00:02:53] It's Thursday night. I plop down in the old recliner look at the clock 30 minutes till bad if I'm to be a responsible adult

[00:03:01] Okay, none of my stories are under 30 minutes

[00:03:04] What now, you know, maybe surf the streaming apps and see what's new pick something for later

[00:03:09] You know, what have I missed? I do see baby reindeer and I've heard of it

[00:03:15] I know I may want to watch it at some point and then the magic number appears 30 minutes

[00:03:21] Each episode runs about half hour. I'm Ash play so hard and fast folks

[00:03:28] fire up episode one

[00:03:30] Let me recommend it for you weird title baby reindeer. I get it weird title, but that makes sense

[00:03:36] Pretty early this show is definitely for you who like bizarre tales from your friends weekend

[00:03:42] Antics of swapping phone numbers and snapchat info only to find that they've made a huge mistake

[00:03:48] what particularly intrigued me before I even watched the show was

[00:03:53] The writer and creator of it is a stand-up comedian Richard Gad and the series is based off

[00:03:59] His one-man play so that's caught my attention a little

[00:04:03] It's a play that's based on these true events in his life when someone began to get a little too obsessed with him and

[00:04:10] Not in a fan of your comedy sort of way

[00:04:14] And what makes these first three episodes cook though is how much

[00:04:18] Information is revealed to you and the amount that you get that builds on one another

[00:04:23] Gad uses himself in the top in the main role

[00:04:27] But he goes by the character of Donnie

[00:04:29] It's just a stand-in for real life and I think we all probably love these shows

[00:04:33] Well, you think you have an idea of pretty much everything and then something new happens or is introduced

[00:04:38] And it doesn't flip the entire series on its head

[00:04:41] But instead makes you laugh and say what the fuck just happened

[00:04:46] Or why are you doing this? Maybe reindeer has that in spades?

[00:04:50] Don't let the name hinder you. It's really good so far seven episodes

[00:04:54] I'm very interested to see how this ends doing a lot of good things. Well it handles loneliness and

[00:05:02] How we accept ourselves and what makes us accept ourselves in a lot?

[00:05:07] I really haven't seen and it makes good use and funny use of close-ups to add to sort of this

[00:05:13] There's a bit of strangeness happening here, and it looks pretty good overall

[00:05:16] I'd say that it even goes so far as to ask what what do we do to feel loved and appreciated?

[00:05:22] I'm for it. It's odd. It's funny. It's interesting and you know what? It's 30 minutes

[00:05:28] Let me run down a little bit more bits of TV

[00:05:30] I don't know if I have a lot to add on the most recent episode of the Apple TV show sugar

[00:05:35] I enjoyed that fourth episode that most

[00:05:39] Recently aired its title starry eyed. I was certainly thoroughly involved mentally with everything taking place

[00:05:46] I don't know that it added a lot it inched the mystery a little further

[00:05:50] Beyond where it was like the week before I think we're seeing some dots really being connected in that central mystery that

[00:05:56] John sugar is tasked to solve especially with the final scene from this most recent episode

[00:06:01] But it didn't really answer any of that spoiler related stuff. I talked about here last week

[00:06:06] So we'll see if we get around to that and win perhaps there was something in the doctor's visit

[00:06:11] So no spoilers. I won't say much anything else

[00:06:14] But even that felt so overt that doesn't feel like a hint in the show

[00:06:20] Doesn't matter to me because Colin Farrell's nailing it. He's wonderful to watch

[00:06:24] He's made for this role somehow

[00:06:27] Lastly though is under the bridge from Hulu. It is not a readout chili peppers documentary

[00:06:34] believe it or not a

[00:06:36] Rip that idea

[00:06:38] From the chili peppers how dare they know this is a this is a fictionalized version of a true story of a missing girl in Canada in

[00:06:48] 1997 and it's based off the book by the same name

[00:06:51] Written by Rebecca Godfrey. The book was pretty popular got really good reviews

[00:06:57] So maybe some of you have read it the actual show itself stars Lily Gladstone fresh off her Oscar nomination for killers of the flower moon

[00:07:04] She's the police officer who's investigating the disappearance

[00:07:08] And Riley Keough is the author

[00:07:12] stand-in

[00:07:13] She's in in the small town from New York to attempt to write a book about her hometown and our guy

[00:07:19] Ash tray from euphoria makes an appearance in this first episode. Yo

[00:07:24] Ash tray, but under the bridge the series does a couple of things

[00:07:27] I did not find compelling and one of which is how they're portraying the author within the show

[00:07:32] It seems unnecessary to even get to the center of the mystery to have her there

[00:07:37] Apparently in real life. She didn't get into the town until

[00:07:40] Well after the crime the second thing is it's not quite

[00:07:45] Living out to what it could be is it just does not feel crafted like a really excellent show should

[00:07:51] But I'm gonna forgive it because the story itself is enough to carry the weight and assuming they let Lily Gladstone

[00:07:57] Go a little deeper with some of her acting skills than what she was allowed in the first episode

[00:08:01] It could get better. I did find it immensely watchable though

[00:08:06] Because I'm so eager to see what happened. Would this be for someone who has read the book

[00:08:10] I just don't think so. I don't know what you're gaining

[00:08:13] You'd know the story in fact

[00:08:15] I'd say that this might even be a watered-down version of what the book gives you huge swaths of it are completely

[00:08:21] fictionalized they've added this depressed grime layer to the fabricated version of the author

[00:08:27] I just don't think it works, but still want to see what happens like like most in this genre

[00:08:33] I'm just I'm not as buoyant about how it's presented. I guess I

[00:08:37] Guess it's just the the genre the genre of taking a true crime event and

[00:08:44] making it a series

[00:08:46] Gets too hamstrung by the tropes and maybe the creators here are just too afraid to push against those boundaries

[00:08:52] under the bridge is getting into a couple of

[00:08:54] Interesting segments of society that's marginalized. You don't see it a lot

[00:08:59] You know teen girls who are either abandoned my parents or can't be raised by them or be troubled enough that they sent into a home

[00:09:06] They're not orphaned. You know what happens to them and better yet what happens when we don't care or we push people like that to the fringes

[00:09:13] What happens to them and then us it could pull off and become good television. We'll see

[00:09:19] Let's get you into the heart of our show with me Adam and Donovan here we go

[00:09:29] Hello

[00:09:32] It's us taking it down Donovan's with me Adams with me. We're going to jump right in

[00:09:39] Without spoiling anything we've talked at length about showgun. We don't retract our recommendation

[00:09:46] It's in the ninth and penultimate episode

[00:09:49] What more could we say other than if you haven't watched it? You probably should I really do think a lot of people will enjoy

[00:09:55] What I do want to talk about since we're in the spoiler free part of the show is the sympathizer

[00:10:01] It's a first episode dropped on HBO and HBO Max. Well, they don't call it anymore. Do they?

[00:10:07] No, it's just Max and the genius who was responsible for that lost a lot of money and got a pay raise

[00:10:15] So David's ass lab is doing fine. I gotta be honest with you guys. I'm very bad at deleting apps

[00:10:20] On my phone. They offload after a certain time if I'm not using them, but I mean my my home screen is just littered with ghosts of HBO at pasts

[00:10:30] You know like Max and then HBO go and I've had the phone for too long, but I was hoping you'd say to be to be isn't that what?

[00:10:37] Wait, what was the other one? It's not to be it's to be the free one, right?

[00:10:41] Oh, I was thinking the really dumb one or they thought like I was going to be like

[00:10:44] I'm gonna be like

[00:10:46] Tubi's the free one right? No, I was thinking the really dumb one or they thought like an air shows five minutes at a time

[00:10:54] We used to make fun of it with regularity

[00:10:58] Quibi quick bites

[00:11:00] We blame called it QB

[00:11:03] Was great, but none of us knew how to pronounce it so because we didn't give a shit is why

[00:11:08] And apparently like when he fired everyone he played a song from like trolls too or something about not giving up

[00:11:15] Or is I like when he announced that they had lost billions of dollars

[00:11:21] Did he played either Coldplay's fix you or you twos without you

[00:11:32] Like a tournaga level staff

[00:11:35] He played the theme song for Laura Palmer

[00:11:40] Probably actually work it actually works for everything. It really does just play it all the time

[00:11:45] What can we say about the sympathizer without spoiling a thing?

[00:11:49] And we definitely want to say if we recommend it don't or do with maybe a certain qualification

[00:11:55] At least my impression of the first episode is oh

[00:11:58] Good director directs goodly. Yeah

[00:12:01] Park Chong Wu, right? I like part John Luke

[00:12:05] If y'all have not seen the handmaiden that is extremely good. I think it's on Amazon right now

[00:12:11] I'm not a hundred percent sure. Okay, that's super good. You know, it's hard to say

[00:12:16] What is show is gonna be like based on the first episode, but I found this one?

[00:12:21] engaging

[00:12:22] Intra like there was a

[00:12:24] Puzzle the element at first that I wasn't sure of and then completely worked for me and

[00:12:29] I'd give it a two to big thumbs up. I thought it was great

[00:12:32] Yeah, the puzzle clicks into place about 30 minutes in and your purpose once it once everything starts to really hum

[00:12:38] Yes, and this is not a spoiler

[00:12:41] Because it's in all the the commercials, but you know, Robbie Duran Jr.

[00:12:46] Plays like six different roles. So if you want to see him with a weird

[00:12:52] Weird haircut you're in luck

[00:12:54] Yes, no, it's not even in our trailer. It's in the max app

[00:13:00] When you click on the show his image is in a bunch of different costumes

[00:13:04] I'll have to see how that works throughout the whole show and it seems like is a gimmick at least for this first one

[00:13:09] It's like it's fine. Like he's a good actor. He did a good job

[00:13:12] I'm interested to see if it really adds anything to it, but right. I thought he nailed it in this one though

[00:13:20] He's very good. Yes, I thought that was maybe some of his best acting I've seen in a very long time

[00:13:26] Agree because you know he does have a tendency to

[00:13:30] Sometimes sleepwalk through stuff a little or just just be Robert Downey Jr. That's what I mean

[00:13:35] Like he kind of like, you know just getting about it's like when Colin Farrell is

[00:13:40] In a role where he doesn't have to do anything but be Irish

[00:13:44] You know and it's like he's just it's like yeah

[00:13:47] And then you see him in a role where he has to act and it's like oh, okay. Yeah, you know

[00:13:51] You're actually good another good actor who's guilty of this is George Clooney does this

[00:13:55] Absolutely, he's just George Clooney. He's just getting by on his charm, which is fun because sometimes you just want to see George Clooney

[00:14:02] Yeah, okay here Robert Downey Jr. Is doing a little bit of the Robert Downey Jr.

[00:14:07] But it's not like dialed back at times and like in a certain

[00:14:12] Role of a of a C8 see I guy so it's yeah, it's good stuff

[00:14:17] I do believe that like I mean he's he's a pretty recognizable person

[00:14:21] But like if you maybe we're paying a ton of attention like he's doing

[00:14:26] You know, he's not up there doing Tony Stark or whatever like it's different enough that maybe you could be like

[00:14:31] Oh, I didn't realize that was Robert Downey Jr. Until you know the credits rolled

[00:14:34] Maybe I find it unlikely but I you know, that's possible. I do reckon recommend the sympathizer

[00:14:41] Because the lead role is not Robert Downey Jr. Despite all our attention here

[00:14:45] It is the lead is a guy who is utterly captivating. I've never seen this actor before

[00:14:51] He has basically been in like one thing before well, he is he's wonder rate. Yeah, it was wonderful

[00:14:57] You just you're drawn to him and you want to pull for him so

[00:15:01] Good good casting there from Downey and his production team. It's a 24 production as well if that

[00:15:07] Helps you make a decision for some it does

[00:15:10] Love the first episode. I was thrilled by it

[00:15:13] And we'll get into the specifics of why on the back half for now

[00:15:19] We're in the penultimate episode

[00:15:21] Of the wildly popular FX Hulu series showgun

[00:15:26] This one titled crimson sky episode 9

[00:15:30] By the way spoiler territory here

[00:15:33] There's really nothing more romantic than offering to second your girlfriend at sepico

[00:15:40] I was so aroused. I had to leave

[00:15:43] I do this for my wife every day. I say

[00:15:47] Would you like for me to chop your head off? Oh, I'll absolutely cut your head off as as I promised at our wedding

[00:15:53] You know, I have to say the difference in

[00:15:56] Lasting love in the fling that they have enjoyed if he really loved her he would have had her pull her hair up

[00:16:01] That was gonna be messy

[00:16:05] Like like when someone's vomiting you hold their hair back, right? You don't you don't want that hair hanging down

[00:16:11] The opening scene is of

[00:16:14] Mariko and her past

[00:16:17] She's we finally get why she was out in the cold

[00:16:21] We got like a 30 second flashback here in there of her walking in the cold

[00:16:24] She was just going to die. She was going to freeze to death, right?

[00:16:28] Yes, as she said like last week with her husband, right? Like I just want to get away from you in this life and I want

[00:16:34] to die as

[00:16:35] You know because my family because my family and my father

[00:16:38] What it allows for is to show us how she becomes connected to the priest priest Martin and I actually kind of like that guy

[00:16:45] I can't stand him. I think he's smart me

[00:16:48] Adam where you break the tie here

[00:16:50] He's the actor is doing a great job because on the one hand you personally like him

[00:16:55] You know as a foil to just the machine of

[00:16:59] The guy he works for essentially I know that's priests do not work for other priests, but basically they have basically does yeah

[00:17:07] But yeah, he's still he's still got a little bit of the grease to him as you said they're blind

[00:17:13] Hey slimy

[00:17:15] Opening scene in present day we get that oh what a sense of danger you get from the camera

[00:17:20] Work alone rising to show the city just a little dread there of it rising to see

[00:17:26] They're going to

[00:17:28] Welcome in black thorn mariko. Yeah, but she did. Oh

[00:17:34] man, they're gonna be welcomed in Osaka and treated as

[00:17:39] polite prisoners polite hostages honored guests

[00:17:44] We and they are honored to be there

[00:17:47] They're so please

[00:17:49] They're really there to present torn on cuz surrender, but

[00:17:53] Mariko

[00:17:54] Let's it be known. Okay. Now that I'm done with the surrender. There's his list these guys here are surrendering to you

[00:18:00] I get back. We got a staff meeting

[00:18:05] She's making her place

[00:18:07] See torn aga's plan here and it all hinges on her she repeats the I'm ready in the episode

[00:18:13] Which is the her last bit of dialogue last week?

[00:18:16] You get the idea that torn on go probably told her look you're going to have to go up there

[00:18:20] You might have to commit sepico in order for this to work

[00:18:24] Is the main question in the dialogue these last couple weeks is torn aga a good person?

[00:18:30] hmm he is

[00:18:33] Is

[00:18:34] Certainly willing to use his support right like the loyalties of his subordinates

[00:18:39] but also

[00:18:40] You know like there's there's a I do think there's an element of like that's almost how they expect to be used

[00:18:47] Right, like he's yeah, you know, yeah, you know even or mariko like right

[00:18:51] He's like this episode is like, you know life and death can are the same

[00:18:55] You know like they can both have meaning black form brightly points out that one is very permanent, right?

[00:19:01] Right and he is there to be our

[00:19:04] voice in that world yes

[00:19:07] To point out different values of life and death

[00:19:11] But they do drive it home over and over again

[00:19:14] Even the foot soldier that dies in front of her during that I'm sure we'll get to this the showdown at the gate

[00:19:19] Yeah, says it's been an honor to serve or fight for you or however

[00:19:23] He phrases it and he knows that he is seconds away from death and still does that so I think we're

[00:19:29] We're playing by different rules yet. We're also

[00:19:33] Melding cultures when she's very concerned about yes the effects of her suicide so

[00:19:40] we're kind of back to

[00:19:42] Draw the world as you as you understand it to be

[00:19:46] What he told him in the episode two what it what's happening here is torn

[00:19:51] I'm gonna just

[00:19:52] Absolutely understands how the games played

[00:19:54] I know how to use the game to my advantage if this is the way the world works deal with it because I'm gonna use it

[00:20:02] It's kind of funny that some of these other people haven't figured that out yet. It's it's almost like he has

[00:20:09] Transcended the game that they're playing and like understands the complex morality and just gets on it like you're saying

[00:20:16] It's when they say an athlete, you know the game is moving really slow for him

[00:20:20] Mm-hmm. That's it. He's kind of doing that to everyone else and it yet doesn't make him like the most

[00:20:26] moral upstanding guy possibly but he's using

[00:20:30] The conventions of his time and place to do what he thinks is right

[00:20:34] I guess that's the question is like is he is he trying to do what he thinks is right?

[00:20:38] Is he making a power play is is he good because he's the best of

[00:20:44] Four to five not good dudes. Mm-hmm, right

[00:20:47] I think I'm inclined to be like it because I I think I said this last week in the first time we talked about it, too

[00:20:53] Like I definitely have the like

[00:20:55] Kind of like like he's one of the protagonist bias, right?

[00:20:58] So you're kind of on his side writing for him

[00:21:01] But I do think that it is kind of like for me the viewer

[00:21:04] He's he's the best of yeah

[00:21:06] Like four other pretty bad options, right and who especially

[00:21:10] Ishii though who really does seem to be making a power play, right?

[00:21:14] Because supposedly none of these people rule right there. They're all just regents for

[00:21:19] The the air I don't know even remember his name

[00:21:23] Supposedly they're all gonna give up power when he turns whatever

[00:21:28] Why have we given the guy with leprosy a chance here have we given him a good shot

[00:21:34] I think that we need to be okay with calling a gentleman with leprosy kind of a dick

[00:21:40] In in both appearance

[00:21:46] No, he's just he's kind of been a jerk until uh, you know, they got their cage rattled at the at the gate

[00:21:53] Let's get into that

[00:21:55] She moves through the sectors where there are gated parts of course

[00:22:00] viewers know

[00:22:01] We've all played age of empires here. Yeah

[00:22:04] Yeah

[00:22:05] She's got her uh small crew. She's determined to leave. She told ishii though

[00:22:10] Look, I'm leaving whether you want me to or not because my loyalty is with tornauga and he needs me back

[00:22:15] He's got a few more days of mourning. I had to get back to him

[00:22:18] That was in a wonderfully acted all around but especially by her cork scene

[00:22:24] So fantastic. I don't want to blow past that really really was fantastic, especially where like

[00:22:30] she you know like she

[00:22:32] states her states who she is

[00:22:35] And lays it all out and and basically is saying that like we we you know

[00:22:40] This polite fiction that we're honored guests. We understand that it's bullshit

[00:22:44] And so if you you know would quit interrupting me, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do about it

[00:22:49] But man, she's so good

[00:22:51] Is all on her, you know

[00:22:53] This this whole episode really was another one where I felt that black thorn was a little bit in the background

[00:22:58] Because it's all on her and I loved it. It was great

[00:23:01] I mean in tornauga is not even in it and he's no a central character in the episode yet is not on screen

[00:23:07] His shadow is over it, but it really all hinders on marco. I would argue that she's been

[00:23:13] Like that the whole season though what you said don't run how she's just

[00:23:17] Crucial to everything and maybe the most important person. Oh, yeah

[00:23:20] Well, there's a series of bait and switch things that happen to me with this show

[00:23:24] One is the the black thorn is the main character and I suppose he is but he's

[00:23:29] He's also like our again our view into a world and kind of our voice

[00:23:34] Yes, but she has the arc right? I mean his arc is like

[00:23:38] I learned some cultural things and a few words of japanese

[00:23:42] Hers is he got a cool robe too. He looks good. I loved when he went to the meeting

[00:23:47] He was still it's like me when I have to wear a suit not totally comfortable

[00:23:51] Like kind of fidgety and like, you know pressing down the jacket

[00:23:55] Yeah

[00:23:56] No, she's she was just fantastic and the other bait and switches as we get into what happened at the gate

[00:24:01] You think you know, I thought maybe oh black thorn is going to show them

[00:24:05] The value the dignity of life, you know, he's going to get through to the small crew and

[00:24:11] You know, then you get to the gate and you think oh this one samurai

[00:24:14] Dressed in way cooler armor than any of these bad guys just took two out like it was nothing

[00:24:19] They're about to blast their way out of here. No, they're not that illusion doesn't hold

[00:24:24] Yeah, that it continues up until the very end

[00:24:28] But mariko sepico was played so well because as a viewer

[00:24:32] You you were just sure it was going to happen after how hero matsu sacrificed himself for torinaga last week

[00:24:39] So it's a huge sigh of relief that she does it and it's it feels like relief

[00:24:45] Which of course makes the very end her own sacrifice just that much more of a gut punch

[00:24:51] The little things that she did physically after

[00:24:55] A shido, you know his message arrives or whatever he gets there and says fine. You can leave

[00:25:01] We're just so good

[00:25:02] You know didn't even say anything but couldn't get her her leg back underneath her could but it was all so subtle

[00:25:07] It wasn't like hand to chest or

[00:25:11] So good

[00:25:12] We were kind of laughing at it to start this out

[00:25:13] But I really thought this was an episode that I really love so basically my

[00:25:18] My review of everything was it was great. It was shot well and acted well

[00:25:22] But black thorn and mariko the actors portraying them had had such

[00:25:28] Great chemistry when he's like you know says i'll do it. I'll be your second. I'll cut your head off

[00:25:33] So you don't you weren't condemned to hell

[00:25:36] And and it's not really words

[00:25:39] It's all just body language and they're they're they're

[00:25:42] Which and I mean they've been great the whole series right like obviously they have chemistry

[00:25:46] But I think this was like a huge payoff moment

[00:25:49] With mariko's death the intas yabu shijie get a shot at redemption at all with you guys

[00:25:54] You know, we've loved him but he's such a is he done now for you

[00:25:59] I know when he stabs his own guy. It's just like you scamp. It was kind of hard to figure out what he was up to

[00:26:05] I couldn't tell if he was letting torna naga's man in at first

[00:26:09] Who were the intruders the the ninja light and characters there?

[00:26:13] By the way adam you do great research for our show and I'm not kidding

[00:26:17] What was the tapping on the shoulder by the intruder with when he was standing there with yabu shijie?

[00:26:23] Were they telling how many people were in the

[00:26:27] The compound perhaps perhaps that's all I haven't I haven't done any research. That's the only thing I could think of

[00:26:33] I was kind of thinking like this is either like he's conveying some kind of information

[00:26:37] But I don't know what though. I was laughing again to continue playing on donovans

[00:26:43] Oh, what a scamp like I still can't dislike him here. He seems

[00:26:49] He seems kind of confused by the tapping

[00:26:51] You know

[00:26:54] That's why I asked he didn't know what he's like. What are you doing?

[00:26:59] He seemed confused by that and alarmed at how many people were coming in

[00:27:03] Like you know he had

[00:27:06] I don't know like a kid who has left the water on in the tub or something and now the water's going everywhere

[00:27:11] This is not going according to plan

[00:27:13] No, that was it and I think he played that perfectly. I think that's what he was supposed to have done

[00:27:18] I mean he definitely

[00:27:20] Is like throughout the series right like they've done a very good job of just emphasizing how much he is not in control of things

[00:27:27] Oh, no, like he's always trying to play the game

[00:27:29] And he's always trying to work and do it advantage, but he's he like he always kind of like outsmarts himself and

[00:27:35] and so you know

[00:27:39] These people who try to play the game and fail, you know, you have everything from torinaga's son

[00:27:45] On through I mean even the regents are

[00:27:48] You know, ishito is imitating what a power grab should be

[00:27:51] He's not he doesn't have the gravitas of torinaga to actually pull it off

[00:27:55] Right and yet our guy our lovable little scamp continues to like make moves

[00:28:01] Be likable and be slippery enough to not have to pay for anything

[00:28:05] No

[00:28:06] He really is a snake at the end of this one right because not just letting the attackers in but then he won't move the

[00:28:12] Whatever heavy object the chest or whatever. Yes, he doesn't help black thorn at all and the way he plays it is just like

[00:28:19] It's funny and also

[00:28:21] You want to push him maybe not punch him, but you want to just push him

[00:28:26] Because he's like

[00:28:27] Well, it just can't be moved. There's no point in going over there. You know, they get that look when it's placed like there's no point in trying

[00:28:33] I do like that actor. I do like he's almost like you almost want to call like wounded innocence when he's like

[00:28:39] attackers, who know?

[00:28:42] But also to go back a little in time he

[00:28:45] his his plan

[00:28:47] Which he doesn't ever vocalize and kudos to the show for not

[00:28:51] Showing their hands hardly ever in this show and just letting you follow along

[00:28:56] But his plan is to offer up black thorn

[00:29:00] Right here. I got you a prisoner

[00:29:03] You like what I brought you and it doesn't work at all

[00:29:06] We don't want a barbarian. What's the point? He really does seem like he late late

[00:29:12] Tornaug has said of him last episode right like he's a he's a gossip

[00:29:15] Like he's short sighted and you always know what he's gonna do

[00:29:18] Like he's a guy who doesn't understand the big picture at all

[00:29:23] The only thing that would have made this episode better

[00:29:25] Would be would be if yabu shijie after he got refused of the prisoner

[00:29:30] Like here's that you can have this as a gift if when they said no if he would have went back and whispered somebody

[00:29:36] We gotta draw up another wheel

[00:29:40] I think that he offered him as a prisoner because

[00:29:43] He now has value to him

[00:29:46] Like he likes him

[00:29:48] That's interesting. He like wants to speak Japanese with him and if it were any other character

[00:29:54] Insisting that mariko not go with him to act as an interpreter. You would think oh, they're kind of trying to screw him over a little bit

[00:30:01] I think he's like no you got it

[00:30:04] Yeah

[00:30:05] I'm so happy. I'm a sap. I'm so happy that mariko and black thorn got

[00:30:10] another moment to rekindle their love

[00:30:13] If if she were died without

[00:30:15] Them hooking back up. I think I would have been a little disappointed more than you imagine how hot it is right after you

[00:30:21] Had to practice against someone's head off

[00:30:23] Just must be insane. Well, you know stressful situations tend to draw

[00:30:27] People together in that way. So yeah

[00:30:30] We gotta see black thorn is pretty good with his gun too

[00:30:33] In

[00:30:36] I have been waiting on the moment to discuss his gun

[00:30:40] Let's talk about it. Finally just to use this gun

[00:30:42] He's been dying to use it and uh pretty capable because there's this one part where he

[00:30:47] shoots a hole in order to grab someone

[00:30:49] And hold them so he could shoot another hole through the wall and kill them

[00:30:53] He's done this before yeah, he's got he's got ninja levels

[00:30:56] You know, he's clearly that ninja level the breaking of

[00:31:00] the silence in the way that everyone's moving through the compound at night and the

[00:31:06] Deadly grace with which it's all happening by him just shooting somebody

[00:31:10] Yeah, it's perfect for his character. It's great and it's we have waited nine episodes for that moment of

[00:31:17] Like well here he comes. It's the ultimate like so anyway. I go in blastin

[00:31:22] There is a little bit there is a little element of like the like the raiders who lost dark scene

[00:31:28] Right? Yeah sword fighter or he comes in the Harrison Ford just

[00:31:31] But hey

[00:31:32] The the ninja guys do knock his gun out of his hand briefly. So yes, it didn't work totally

[00:31:39] Speaking of black thorn

[00:31:42] In the sand or excuse me that I guess they're pebble sand

[00:31:45] Uh, how'd y'all read that where he just stood there with the one line in the perfectly curated sand

[00:31:51] I don't know if we're supposed to take that as like a

[00:31:54] Him kind of saying I have tried to understand this culture

[00:31:58] and now this

[00:32:00] You know, especially with marico's

[00:32:02] slavish

[00:32:04] obedience

[00:32:05] To say like this the logic is failing me here

[00:32:08] I have admired and and tried to learn as much as I can but now this is

[00:32:13] You know, he's he's scratching it like the facade in a way

[00:32:16] I think I read it that way too where it's like he's like I am fun like my

[00:32:22] individualism

[00:32:24] And is is fundamentally out of step. Yeah

[00:32:28] That's exactly what I was gonna say. I cannot get

[00:32:31] Some level I can understand folks, but also I cannot understand them at all

[00:32:36] Yeah, I saw it as the line is as kind of representative of him coming in and

[00:32:42] Disrupting the beautiful

[00:32:44] Or he feels as though he is

[00:32:46] disrupting a

[00:32:48] The rules and the beauty that they have laid out these perfectly designed thing and he feels

[00:32:55] Or maybe this whole situation is a disruption of that

[00:32:59] Crimson sky was a bit of a red herring as a title seems like right

[00:33:02] Man, what a what a great tease, huh? Because we even last week

[00:33:05] We'd been like this is when game of you know every prestige

[00:33:09] Show, you know, this is when Game of Thrones has the big battle. I loved it

[00:33:14] Like thanks for the great bait and switch. Thank you. It was good

[00:33:17] Like Adam said that has that's been a motif of the series. Uh-huh. Yeah

[00:33:21] It hats off

[00:33:23] But in a way that feels earned to me. Oh, yeah

[00:33:26] No, it's not trickery. Yeah, this didn't feel cheap at all. Not cheap not tricks, but very now there's a bad name cheap trick

[00:33:36] But yeah, I'm just sad we only got one left

[00:33:40] I honestly don't because I'm I'm not looking at the novel or anything

[00:33:44] So I don't really know how things are gonna turn out. So I don't honestly is like I'm

[00:33:49] It still seems like we have a lot to resolve. How could they possibly do it?

[00:33:53] It's my understanding that Yabush EJ is getting his own spin-off series

[00:33:57] Where he comes to England perfect

[00:34:01] Wouldn't that be great the the expressions he could make in England not understanding a word

[00:34:07] He discovers the the public houses

[00:34:09] Please please let him go. I love as I've probably said with every episode, but just hell well

[00:34:15] Crafted and shot everything is like Adam described like the

[00:34:19] The chaos and confusion

[00:34:21] Of the shinobi attack combined with blackthorn

[00:34:24] Everything everything about the confrontation in the gates was great up to

[00:34:30] Mari co

[00:34:31] Taking her naginata and the soldiers not being able to harm her but not being just great. It looked great

[00:34:38] It's just the camera works

[00:34:40] Sssss in such concert with the story they're telling it's it's really good

[00:34:45] Any other

[00:34:46] Viewers who fell in love with mariko just message me and will mourn together

[00:34:52] Yeah, she's so good at least fushi still out there. I kind of like fushi. Fugi's great, but she's no mariko

[00:34:58] Well, she's no mariko first, but she's wonderful. You gotta gotta think she's got to pop back up at some time

[00:35:02] But maybe not I don't know maybe she's served her duties

[00:35:06] Let's take a break for station identification

[00:35:10] We're back

[00:35:15] We're gonna offer up some brief thoughts with spoilers on the first episode of the sympathizer

[00:35:22] HBO and 824's adaptation of

[00:35:26] viet Thanh wins

[00:35:28] uh 2016

[00:35:30] Novel it's a piece of fiction

[00:35:32] Which I didn't know if it was fiction or nonfiction. I'm glad I know now

[00:35:35] That's why I said it with a little hesitancy

[00:35:38] It won a Pulitzer prize though. Yes his debut novel wow

[00:35:43] I believe he'd written don't quote me on this. I think he'd written like short stories and published before

[00:35:49] But he came out he came out swinging for the novel

[00:35:52] Wow

[00:35:53] impressive it opens with

[00:35:55] The book in the show opens with the a quoted passage

[00:36:00] Quoted by many I suppose all wars are fought twice the first time on the battlefield

[00:36:04] The second time in memory good opening quote love the aesthetic here of everything looking like it came straight from 1975

[00:36:12] Sometimes you get a prestige drama and it's like okay. We get it

[00:36:15] But like I think hp like when HBO is really trying

[00:36:19] Like it looks

[00:36:21] Fabulous it really does. I thought about the set design so much during this

[00:36:27] In a very nerdy way perhaps

[00:36:29] I

[00:36:30] Get into that kind of thing my man. I'd take forever to recreate that look aside gone

[00:36:36] It worked so well for me. It was for for me. It created such a mood. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah

[00:36:43] Really like really like it was almost a set design and of course the acting and what's going on in the background

[00:36:49] Really felt almost like oppressive to me by the end of it like like

[00:36:53] Thinking about like this city is actually like this city is falling. The city is being

[00:36:59] Taken over again. Anyway, the Vietnam war seems really cool

[00:37:03] Do we win?

[00:37:05] No

[00:37:07] Did anyone win cannot let me introduce you to a man and Henry Kissinger

[00:37:12] Say the thesis of this show may well turn out to be hey, nobody really wanted

[00:37:18] Oh

[00:37:19] I'd say we lost it completely

[00:37:22] Oh, no, of course, but we lost it. Well, I mean even you know

[00:37:26] Even just a little bit before this point, right?

[00:37:29] Nixon's like we're gonna end the war

[00:37:31] Right because that's popular at home

[00:37:34] Uh Kissinger's like the north koreans won't uh end the war unless we inflict extremely heavy north v maize

[00:37:41] Did I say north koreans? I'm sorry north v enemies unless we inflict extremely heavy casualties

[00:37:46] So they kept the war going on for a couple more years lost about 20 000 more american lives and killed

[00:37:52] Probably a million to two million vietnamese people just because

[00:37:57] That's what they thought the calculator, you know

[00:38:00] That's sort of politics of it. So yeah that really kind of sucks

[00:38:05] If I was a full-time podcaster, I would have rewatch ken Burns vietnam

[00:38:10] as a prep for this because I that show

[00:38:14] Documentary was so dense that I'd forgotten everything about it almost

[00:38:19] But it's also really good and fascinating and sad

[00:38:23] Yeah, so what we have here with the sympathizer is a piece of fiction. It's a vietnam war era story

[00:38:29] Narrated through prison letters of a nameless

[00:38:33] Double agent from the north and the south he's from the north or sympathizes with the north wants communist

[00:38:40] North to be in control. That's who he's pulling for and he's down in the south

[00:38:44] Very much as a mole everybody buys him as captain in the army

[00:38:50] Vietnam era stories do for me what napoleon era stories do for adam

[00:38:57] I am so in on a vietnam era

[00:39:01] story

[00:39:03] So he's he's right under the general and also in contact with a important cia agent played by

[00:39:10] Robert Denny jr. We mentioned in the top

[00:39:13] He's the right-hand man of the general though and they're on the cusp of the fall of saigon

[00:39:18] That's where the story begins

[00:39:20] I suppose the story really begins with him in prison riding you see this then we

[00:39:25] Flash back to the fall of saigon or a few a couple of months right before

[00:39:29] We've talked about this at the top, but I just can't get enough of and let me just go ahead and butcher his poor name here

[00:39:35] I did not get enough of hoa zonday

[00:39:40] Zonday hit the act the primary actor the the protagonist here is

[00:39:45] Is it a little bit? Well, I thought he was great throughout it. Uh, he's narrating it right? He's

[00:39:51] Um, he's our anchor. He's our way in but then you did a couple times

[00:39:55] Park Chen Wook

[00:39:56] Showed the same scene over again, but you've got new information. Yeah, he did. Yes

[00:40:00] He did and I always like I thought like the acting was very good there where it's like the first time you see this scene

[00:40:05] You read it one way the second time, you know, you read it this way

[00:40:09] I don't I don't like really have this formed in my head yet

[00:40:13] But I did I did think there was a little bit of like

[00:40:16] For me for like the south vietnamese and the americans at this point

[00:40:19] It's like what are you fighting for it's over just get out of there

[00:40:22] Don't you know why why keep up the struggle?

[00:40:25] And I think that kind of tied with

[00:40:27] Uh, the captain's like, okay, it's almost over like my fight is almost over and then being told that he has to prolong the struggle

[00:40:35] Oh, yeah

[00:40:36] He's told about midway through that no you've got to stay with the general because when he goes to america

[00:40:42] He's going to be up to no good over there. Yeah, I'll be organizing against against vietnam. Right

[00:40:48] The new country

[00:40:50] Or the newly reunified country. I should say part of the complexity of

[00:40:54] What's going to be happening is he our sympathizer

[00:40:57] From the title has two blood brothers who is practically who are practically like brothers to him

[00:41:04] bond

[00:41:05] Who's very much a south vietnamese fighter army in the air force for the south vietnam?

[00:41:13] I think he was paratrooper paratrooper and man now. He is also a bit of a mole except he's

[00:41:19] A

[00:41:21] Dentist in south no one ever suspects a dentist. They do not

[00:41:26] Now that is true

[00:41:28] We also get early in the show the one of the ladies who's involved who has gotten caught by uh

[00:41:35] By our protagonist the captain here

[00:41:37] And they're having to wait on her to poop out some film

[00:41:41] She knows that he right is a mole as well

[00:41:44] Yes, and she tells so they you know they have to be in the room and pretend they don't know

[00:41:49] What you know what the other person it's that classic spy

[00:41:52] Troll perhaps that I know you're a mole. You know i'm a

[00:41:57] You know that I know you we just can't act like it and she tells him to hit her

[00:42:01] I mean, yes

[00:42:02] Hey, you can tell he's kind of a good guy from that scene where he's just like a you the look on his face

[00:42:07] Is I did not want to hit you at all his own guys are evil. Oh, she's asking for a kiss, right?

[00:42:12] So he's getting him from everywhere. Uh-huh

[00:42:14] We are definitely meant to sympathize with this guy and you know what from the beginning I do he seems earnest idealistic

[00:42:21] He doesn't hate. He doesn't hate the south vietnamese people

[00:42:25] He's you know, he he doesn't like the the government which to be fair to him

[00:42:30] Was historically pretty corrupt and awful

[00:42:34] You know, he seems

[00:42:36] Sincere sincere maybe even like is he naively sincere?

[00:42:40] I don't think we're supposed to think that but I wonder like because he seems like

[00:42:45] He's a true believer. That's a good question

[00:42:48] Yeah, I don't because I don't feel like he's cynical in the way that the cia agent

[00:42:55] Uh portrayed by robert downey jr. Was comes across as cynical, right?

[00:42:59] Where he's like that well, we lost the game here. So we'll figure something else out

[00:43:03] It actually matters to him. This is all supposition on my part

[00:43:07] We're gonna get him a lot more of this in the days to come. Yeah, definitely the episodes come

[00:43:11] But claud the cia agent played by robert downey jr likes him. That's for sure

[00:43:16] Yes, he does maybe likes him more than he does the general. I think he definitely likes him

[00:43:21] He likes the general. Yeah, he's a bit

[00:43:24] Kind of sending to the general at times claus

[00:43:28] We don't have a lot to go with on so far because it's only the one episode but as a good as an episode

[00:43:34] As a first episode I thought it was pretty good. I think it did a lot of different things. It had action. It had

[00:43:41] The suspense it had the the what I really enjoyed, right? It was for america with vietnam

[00:43:47] It's like we kind of like okay. We settled in paris, right?

[00:43:49] And then we get to go everyone gets to go back to america and we get to spend

[00:43:54] You know the next 50 years writing the things they carried or whatever and figuring ourselves out

[00:43:58] the folks

[00:44:00] That lived in vietnam like the vietnamese people like they

[00:44:04] They're not just an afterthought right like they're a crucial and seeing

[00:44:08] Like our allies being treated as an afterthought was like kind of upsetting but also

[00:44:14] Really makes you think especially as we uh, you know, even in in my life our lifetimes

[00:44:19] We've done somewhat the same thing in iraq in afghanistan. Yeah

[00:44:24] Also, man, I the whole when they're going for the c 130 which is the big

[00:44:29] transport plane and the

[00:44:31] Fall of saigon is more and more emigrant imminent and they are being shelled on the runway

[00:44:38] On the bus

[00:44:39] Well, this that was a very heart in your throat

[00:44:43] Huge scene for me. Yes it is. It's uh, it's a bit devastating. It is extremely devastating now you

[00:44:52] mentioned to me in private that

[00:44:54] Your wife watched this episode with you

[00:44:57] And she had nightmares about that scene

[00:45:00] Yes, she does. She does not do more stuff and then of course like compound like

[00:45:06] Artillery barrage with a dead baby. That's just

[00:45:11] That's she I will be watching the rest of this show by myself. I'm like they're going to america sandra

[00:45:16] Oh is gonna be in it. It's gonna be fun. No, uh, we're done

[00:45:20] It's yeah, there is a funny tone happening here. It's with the blend of

[00:45:25] Flippant and then this gravitas of

[00:45:29] His brother so to speak and the baby dying now did the wife also die?

[00:45:35] I assume so. I mean maybe we'll find out she did him, but I assume they both

[00:45:39] The wife and the baby brutal brutal brutal stuff

[00:45:42] With that image of the baby man. It's yeah, it's tough to handle

[00:45:46] But at the same time there are moments of levity in this episode

[00:45:50] You know the one that made me laugh the most was when they're at all three of them

[00:45:53] The three friends are drinking at the cafe

[00:45:56] And one of the other soldiers there calls

[00:46:02] The captain like a half breeder or whatever because I forget if it's his mother or father who's french

[00:46:06] But I think one of his parents is french

[00:46:08] and and his

[00:46:10] His paratrooper friend who's like almost too drunk to stand starts

[00:46:14] starts fighting

[00:46:16] And there he and the the his friend the dentist the captain and the dentist are having like an actual

[00:46:24] Like discussion about like like spy stuff in the background

[00:46:28] This guy's taking on like 20 guys and at the end of it. He's like should I go help him?

[00:46:33] The fight continues in the background, which is very much a comedy kind of thing

[00:46:37] It made me laugh so hard. That was a great

[00:46:39] But they're sitting there talking and the captain's I think this is the scene where he tells

[00:46:44] Man

[00:46:45] I was fascinated and repulsed when he was in America and man tells him that's what loving america

[00:46:51] That's what people us mean when they love say they love america. I'm like, that's a pretty good line

[00:46:55] That is because I think that's how I feel

[00:46:59] I think there's a lot of how I feel too

[00:47:01] Honestly where like you have the stuff that it's like this is fascinating and this part is

[00:47:07] Even inspiring and then like there's so much that is utterly repulsive

[00:47:11] And they're in a constant tug of war

[00:47:14] Depending on what day it is, you know

[00:47:16] You're right. My my favorite moment of comedy was when

[00:47:21] Claude's character a roberdena juniors character Claude tells the general

[00:47:26] I'm one 16th black

[00:47:30] And the general says why do all these ivy league guys have to say that they have uh blood of a black person in them

[00:47:37] That was very funny. Yes, I forgot. I actually forgot about that. That was how I do that

[00:47:42] That's a good question. It's it's like the one I'm you know, my my great-great-grandmother was Cherokee, right?

[00:47:48] It's like no, you're you're no that's what we heard in the south a lot

[00:47:52] I heard that in the south like in small towns southern like yeah

[00:47:56] Yeah, I have a great great great great grandfather who was native american

[00:48:01] Right. Yeah, which is you know meaningless

[00:48:04] It's also reminiscent of uh, I've got a friend who's black

[00:48:09] That is definitely where I see that it's coming. It's like no, I can say that I've got you know, my

[00:48:15] most 16th of

[00:48:17] Right, um, it's also a non to robert denny juniors character in rolling thunder

[00:48:23] Tropic thunder. I'm sorry rolling thunder's the bob tillin

[00:48:27] tour

[00:48:28] Another uh, it funny enough another movie about vietnam. You're exactly that's right very much

[00:48:35] We don't have a ton to say because of its only the first episode. Uh, I loved it

[00:48:40] Same, uh, if nothing else, I just love vietnam

[00:48:43] era stories, but this looks like it could be

[00:48:47] Doing something interesting

[00:48:49] I'm really excited to see what's gonna happen when they go to america because it it will have to be so different from what we have seen

[00:48:56] Right in this episode, but based on the way

[00:49:00] Everything I would I would describe that that they the episode was handled very deftly, you know where it's like

[00:49:06] It it it moved everything really clicked. I'm excited to see what

[00:49:11] Lies in store for us and I'm excited

[00:49:14] Based on this first episode the people who are running this know what they're doing

[00:49:18] I wonder if I will be as enthralled once they get to america

[00:49:22] I'm wondered too because you were saying part of the you know

[00:49:26] This this the setting is fascinating to you. It is like I thought it well for me

[00:49:30] Honestly, the setting was very sad and oppressive for me

[00:49:33] Which makes it sound like I didn't like it and I didn't like it

[00:49:36] But I also knew like this is

[00:49:40] Somewhat prologue because I know I know a lot of it is going to happen in the united states

[00:49:45] Right. Yeah, the bulk of the story will be happening

[00:49:48] After the vietnam war which is

[00:49:51] It's just the era and you know, that was the the pebble in the water

[00:49:56] The ripples are to come are coming right? Yes. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, we we might end up talking about it more next week

[00:50:03] We'll find out we will definitely be talking about showgun because it's finale will have aired

[00:50:08] At the finale. I'm not I'm not ready blaine. I want more showgun

[00:50:13] And with that follow us online talk to us go to the site

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[00:50:24] I don't know if we've lost our mind with that

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[00:50:34] Okay, uh for adam and donovan. See you guys later

[00:50:46] You