Religion and Work: 'American Primeval' and 'Severance'

This is Taking It Down.

If you're new to this podcast, we're the working class TV and streaming podcast for the Alabama Takes site.

It's been my experience with workers of the world that they often want to know what's worth watching or even if their ideas about a show or movie are legitimate.

Just because someone grinds at a career doesn't mean that they don't have critical thinking skills.

So this podcast exists for two reasons.

Hopefully to save you some time by avoiding shows or movies that aren't for you, and also to think through your own judgment of an episode or film.

This podcast, Taking it down, is here to provide you, my fellow working class citizen of the world, a grounded, unique, maybe blue collar, somewhat Southern, somewhat intelligent and critical perspective on TV and movies.

I'm Blaine.

I'm the host.

I'll be joined by Donovan in a bit.

I'm usually talking to both Donovan and Adam, as you probably know, but it's only Donovan and me this week to chop up that fifth episode of Apple TV Plus's wildly popular series, Severance.

We won't spoil anything about Severance until we get into the spoiler section.

We'll briefly start the episode with brief chatter on Saturday Night Live and then some elongated and again, no spoilers thoughts about the Netflix series American Primeval, as I have almost finished that series, but Donovan hasn't seen it.

Some of you may not have seen it.

I'm going to break down if it's for you or not, without telling you any aspect of the show.

All right, let me get Donovan in here to talk to me.

Yeah.

Welcome to Donovan, an ever present source of goodwill and common sense and cold medicine this week.

That's absolutely not true.

Except for the cold medicine.

The cold medicine's true.

The cold medicine is very true.

I need the stuff.

Like, you know how hard it is to get stuff that they used to make meth out of.

Yes.

Did I answer that too quickly?

It used to be you got a cold and you took.

You took some of that good meth stuff and you were just out for 24 hours.

Yeah.

Or felt okay, at least.

Now I can still feel my body.

I can still think my thoughts.

I don't like it.

You're lucky I'm here.

You're lucky I'm upright.

Well, I was going to say, the one thing we have in common to Saturday Night Live is we press record at the same time each week whether we're prepared or not.

And 99% of the time, we're not that prepared.

I thought what you were going to say was, one thing we share in common is that Elvis Costello is not allowed on either of our shows.

That son of a bitch is still banned from taking his ass is banned.

Donovan, I'm going to throw you a bit of a curveball in our non spoiler section.

Yeah, we may be the only podcast this week not talking about Saturday Night Live.

By the way, I'm going to watch the music one, if nothing else, because there seemed like.

So I really want to see the St.

Vincent David Byrne stuff, because I guess it was what St.

Vincent, David Byrne and Arcade Fire did.

Heroes.

Okay, yeah, I could watch a clip, but I really do want to watch it.

And then, like, weirder choices, like, I guess Nirvana reunited with Post Malone.

Is Kirk with Kurt.

Oh, very straight.

Yes.

Yeah.

Dave, Chris, what's the other guy?

Oh, you.

You're talking about the extra guitars, Pat.

Yeah.

So they came together and then Post Malone was Kurt Cobain which sounds really odd to me.

That sounds like a train wreck.

But listeners know we record on Sunday, and there's probably the big 50th anniversary special on tonight, I guess, on straight up, about five.

About five and a half hours from now, I guess.

That's straight up NBC.

Not even peacock.

I bet you could do both.

I'm not sure how that's going to work, but I really do want to watch that.

I'm a Saturday Night Live kind of guy sometimes if I'm.

If I'm up and it's live, I will certainly watch it.

You know, I.

When it hits, it hits.

Yeah.

I almost find myself a whole episode is a little much for me.

Oh, no, no, no.

That's a good point.

I never watch the whole episode.

I usually watch up until told the news, and then I watch it and then I'm done.

I don't know.

Like, a whole episode is a little much for me.

Like, I'm like, okay, I've seen this bit.

Yeah, but like, when it.

When it hits it, like, when it's good, it's good.

Yeah.

I tend to watch it on Saturday night.

I'm usually catching up on TV for this podcast, which we record on Sunday.

I'm catching up on things on Saturday night.

And then.

So I'm watching Saturday Night Live on a delay often because I've wrapped up whatever TV I was going to catch up on, and I just go and.

And I've got it DVR'd and I watch it on delay.

Like, just as far as, like, monoculture goes.

Yeah, it is kind of like one of the last things where, like, many different people have seen it.

And it's sort of astounding, the, like, quality of music that they continually get.

Like, they're not.

Like, they're not getting, like, something super out there experimental or, you know, sun oh is not playing on Saturday Night Live.

And I don't.

I don't know if this matters anymore, but, like, when.

When I was a kid growing up really pre.

A lot of stuff, this was, like, where you.

This is kind of how you found out about stuff sometimes, you know.

You know what I mean?

Where it's like, oh, like, I mean, we were joking.

But it's like Elvis Costello did get his ass kicked off Saturday Night Live for playing radio.

Like, they had him.

Like, David Bowie played Saturday Night Live with, you know, some.

Some.

I can't remember the German fella.

He died of aids, I believe.

But, like, it was.

It's an iconic performance.

Yeah.

Like, they've.

Over the years, they've had some good stuff.

Yeah, they have.

They do point me in a direction that I may not know about, you know, with music still.

Yeah.

The most recent one, I guess I watched was Timothy Chamalet, and he was the musical guest as well.

How sick is his girlfriend of hearing Bob Dylan songs?

She's probably.

She and my wife could start a support group.

He kicks into, like, Blowing in the Wind, and she's like, I'm going to my mother's.

Call me when you're done.

Some people did not care for him being the musical guest.

Before or after he.

They saw it?

Oh, after.

Really?

I actually thought he did quite a good job.

I was impressed.

I was impressed.

Yeah.

I thought he did something different.

That's good.

Kind of cool.

I liked it.

I guess it is, like, sort of like an extended cover set.

Although I do.

It's a little different if you've asked someone of clearly his talent.

I mean, obviously he puts in the time and energy and work to learn about his subject.

So I thought it was kind of like, okay, he's.

He's done this whole Dylan thing.

He's talked about Dylan.

He's thought about Dylan a lot.

Now he's getting to do the music, which is kind of cool.

I love that he still never met him.

I hope he never will.

Yeah.

Well, I've watched almost all of Netflix's limited series, American Primeval.

Yes.

Saved.

That's about the Mormons, right?

Yes, it is.

I saved my thoughts.

Sometimes I put them on the front end alone.

But I saved them for us because I'm kind of set on how I feel.

And I'm not gonna spoil anything either.

It's written by Mark L.

Smith, who wrote the Revenant, so it's got some Western bona fides.

It's directed by actor and director Peter Berg, who's directed everything from the original Friday Night Lights movie to Deep Water Horizon and just.

Oh, is that him?

Yeah.

That's great.

Okay.

I did not know that.

Big action kind of thing sometimes.

Yeah.

He's got his own style and he brings it to this show in.

What's the word?

In spades.

Might not be the word, but definitely a lot.

Sure.

He show set in 1857 in Utah when, like, you mentioned Mormons and then various settlers and the army.

I say they, they.

They damn well near got into a war with the federal government.

Like in, like in real.

Like in real life.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, of course, tossing the Native Americans who already live there.

Sure.

And it is kind of the Utah War.

I think it's referenced as in some.

In pretty much everywhere.

It's a.

I think there's also called a Massacre on Mountain Trail, which is a more specific aspect of this.

What.

What would be your questions?

Having not seen any of it?

Is it good or is it overly grim?

Oh, wow.

Do you know how.

Have you read reviews or something?

Not really.

Really?

Because it's pretty.

It's grim.

Yeah, it really is.

Especially like post like Unforgiven or whatever.

You just have this like.

It's like Lord of the Flies in the West.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

And I feel like some people, it's like, come on, I've seen this before and some folks do it really well.

Like one show, I think from past five years that did it very well was the English, but it wasn't.

It wasn't unremitting brutality.

Another show, granted, with only a PG or movie with only a PG13 is like Cohen's True Grit was a little closer to the bone.

Oh, really?

But.

But then you get, you know, you get some of these shows and you're like.

It's almost like what happened with comics post Watchmen, where it's like the substance, like violence is not the same as having anything to say.

You've noticed this about Westerns.

You're quoting only Westerns, but some Western.

I mean, other shows too, but just some Westerns.

Especially post.

My understanding is, post Unforgiven, this is really a thing.

Wow, that's an insightful observation.

Oh, certainly.

Well, it wasn't entirely mine.

I get it.

I get it.

I cobbled it together.

And I do think you see this in other.

Weirdly enough, I think it's called the Nightingale.

It's a movie about Australian frontier society, but you kind of get the same thing with it.

Like, it is grim.

Yeah.

It's almost as if people, when they want to go apocalyptical and they don't want to make a dystopian apocalyptical movie or show, they go Western.

Yes, agreed.

I wonder why that is.

What is it about?

It's because it's lawless.

It's.

There's the Wild west, there's anything can happen feel to it.

Yes.

I think too, you know, there's just.

It's enough of a kind of like, primeval American myth that, like, you start putting some stuff on the screen and it's almost like it's shorthand.

You're like, oh, I can get, you know, like, I, I know how I should feel about these folks, you know, who actually, I, I haven't.

And this is really not good for American primeval.

But I would.

I would actually put it as a perfect example of not doing this.

And still it's an incredible Western.

And it feels like the end of the world is the Cohen's no Country for Old Men, where I don't feel miserable watching it.

It's actually like, if you rewatch it, it's actually funny.

Yeah, but it's.

Yeah, it is grim and it is dark, but it is not so damn good.

And then there's other stuff where I'm like, okay, you know, it's.

It's hard to.

It's kind of like what happened with movies post Pulp Fiction, right?

Where it's like, huh?

They watch Pulp Fiction, they're like, swears the N word and murder.

That's what makes a movie for adults.

And it's like, not, not necessarily.

They.

They.

They try and imitate it without understanding what's under.

That's true.

I think there's a lot of that.

There's a lot of that, and it happens with westerns a lot.

Now this one, I think viewers will watch it and, and go two directions and there will be no middle.

They'll either love it or, or they'll hate it.

And at first I was almost turned off by how much effort there was by Berg to stylize his direction with not, not the actors, but the.

Just the set pieces, the action pieces.

But at the same time, I understand the want.

Need to create a Western that stands apart from other things.

And this is a very different tale.

I don't Know that I've ever read anything or watched anything about the Utah War?

Yeah, no, I think it's.

I think I.

I like the premise.

I do, too.

So it does these.

This camera work that distracted me at first, but I grew to love it in a way because it was super stylized.

But I guess I either came to accept it or.

Or I just watched it because of it.

And not really.

Even in spite of that, I just kept watching.

It's like, why.

You know, that is super tricky camera work to do for our Western, why they keep doing this.

And I just kept watching, but I returned to it pretty eagerly on a nightly basis.

It's a show where every episode seems to get worse and worse for the characters, and you wonder what's next.

You know, there is that.

You mentioned that.

That grim reality.

There is this.

I can't put my finger exactly what.

But there's this Netflix ness to it.

Okay.

And.

And it's okay.

It's fine.

Taylor Kitsch is in this movie, and his character was a little tropey.

Too many tropes on one guy.

Okay.

Yep.

But I felt as though he and the rest of the cast understood their characters as the episodes and filming went on, and it got really good.

Shea Wiggums in this.

He.

You and I know him from Perry Mason.

Yes.

The Perry Mason sidekick, though, my goodness, whatever he's in, he elevates it.

Enjoyed him quite a bit.

He's so good.

He's perfect in whatever you want to cast him in.

And he's very versatile.

He's versatile, and I don't think I've seen him in a Western.

I might be wrong, but he.

My God, when I saw him, I thought, why the fuck hasn't he been every Western 2010.

He's kind of got the face for it, doesn't he?

I mean, he's a grizzled, tired guy.

Put him in some dust.

You know, he's running his own fort in Utah.

And, man, I loved his.

His performance.

Betty Gilpin is in this.

You may remember her from glow.

Yes.

She plays a.

A lady who's recently come out west with her son.

And she's kind of the.

Dare I say, audience surrogate.

She.

She's the really fictional part of this story.

She and Taylor Kitsch's character.

But she does well.

She's.

She's a great actress.

She does really well in this.

And that's the story you kind of move along with.

There are parts of this, though, that feel like two or three different shows at once.

Okay.

And that's going to either be in a good way or bad way for the viewer.

Okay, you're going to.

You're going to watch this and go, I love all of these stories.

Or you're going to watch this and go, you know, make this cohesive.

Okay?

Because.

Yeah, the last time I had that feeling about a Western years ago was Godless.

And for me, it was.

I do not care about.

Godless is not a Western.

That I enjoyed, folks.

And part of it was like, choose something and stick to it, please.

Okay, Just pick one damn thing.

I think you would like this movie for one performance if.

Okay, well, Shea Wiggum, obviously, but I'll give you another one.

Okay.

If a movie or show ever needs an actor to play Satan, I'm going to suggest Kim Coates, who plays Brigham Young.

He looks like somebody who stepped out of 1857 and they said, dude, jump on this next flick show.

William.

Apparently he was in Sons of Anarchy, which makes a whole lot of sense.

Yeah, I liked it.

I've got one episode to go.

This does set me up for.

We got a comment on our site, the Alabama take for our last podcast episode, where I mentioned American Primeval briefly at the beginning, and it was from 87 Jedi, our regular listener.

Yeah, I always want to give him credit.

He said he's a regular.

He said, favorite part of this episode, talking about our podcast episode, and he mentions it's because he's so far behind on Severance was that Blaine mentions the criminally underrated Shea Wiggum.

His performance as Jim Bridger is one of the many highlights of American Primeval, and he's been great as one of Jeff Nichols main guys who is a son of an anarchy guy.

That's.

Am I right about that?

Yeah, I think so.

Although my personal favorite Shea Wiggin performance is Ray and Vice principles.

Hilarious, man.

I haven't thought about that one for a minute.

Yeah, he is so good.

I would love to see him cast as a vice principal.

You know that he plays, of course, like a.

A stepdad figure.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's so funny if he would have been a Vice, but funny as.

Anyway, he says, looking forward to hearing further American Primeval discussion.

I binge watched the entire series in two sittings because I really enjoyed it.

All right.

That's quite the.

That's quite the endorsement.

He and I, he and I, he and us have a lot of similar taste when it comes to shows.

So, yeah, if he's suffered in.

Through as many episodes of this as I know he's suffering through.

I'll make another.

And this is kind of linked, but I didn't think about it until you started talking about American Primeval.

And I do think, you know, you, you, you have said a couple times that in Severance it reminds you of Scientology.

And I agree there is some.

But I was watching this last episode and thinking it actually kind of reminds me of Mormonism in the sense that.

And I do not mean this in a.

In a negative or, or any way against the religion of the latter, you know, Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints.

But it reminded me so much of how Mormonism is really the.

An American religion, like, religious movement that came 100% out of America.

And I feel like, especially with a lot of the paintings of Kier, that they are pulling on very American iconography to create this very American.

So I was like, I wonder if someone old Severance HQ has done a little thinking about this.

Much like the Western is a pure, almost purely American cinema experience.

Even.

Even other genres that like, adapt it or.

So I'm thinking of Kurosawa's excellent Yojimbo, which is just, you know, which got turned into basically, yeah, you know, the Clint Eastwood movies.

But, but, you know, it's, it's, it's referencing the Western the whole time while still being a fantastic samurai movie.

Yeah, it's a lot like the blues.

And then the British Invasion borrowed the blues and then the Americans came back to the roots of the blues, which is silly.

There were times where I thought American Primeval didn't have something to say, but I think it does.

That's what I always kind of wonder about when it's like something that is iconic, like a Western, something that allows you to have like, you know, sex, violence, etc.

Lets you go full Lord of the Flies.

But are you just saying, you know what?

People are pretty shitty to each other most of the times.

Because, friend, I already knew that.

Yeah, I can turn my TV on to cnn.

I already knew that.

You know.

Yeah.

But do you have something more with.

Your idea of probably truth, I shouldn't say idea that Mormonism is the true American religion, began in America.

You know, that's.

That's not original with me.

That's.

So I think of sociology of religion.

No, that's okay.

I was just gonna say that I.

Think that kind of brings that up.

American probably might even be playing with.

That a little interesting.

Yeah, if so, that's.

Then it does have something to say.

If not, eh, it's still pretty fun to watch, I think, even in its Brutality.

That's kind of all we can at the end of the day.

It's nice when something really speaks to you, but if it was just fun to watch, that's a win, too.

Yeah, it is.

You know, there's so much crap out there, it's hard to make something that people actually enjoy.

So.

Yeah.

Still got that Netflix imprint somehow.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Like, it's got.

It's almost.

But it's.

Get away from that a little.

It's almost like I kept asking myself, can I see this somewhere besides Netflix?

Could I see this air?

I think I could see it on Apple tv.

Okay.

They do have.

And I think it's coming from their business side.

Honestly, I.

They have a house style, and I think it's.

It's not on the side of art.

You know, the episode I watched this morning, I said to myself, I couldn't see this on hbo, but I could see it on Apple.

Okay, so it's some.

There you go.

There's where it lands.

Is it.

Does it rise above some Netflix stuff?

I think so.

Does it rise as high as the Best of hbo?

No, he doesn't.

But, hey, there you go.

You're paying for Netflix anyway.

Might as well watch it.

You know, Emily Vanderwerff.

I just remembered this once.

The TV critic Emily Vanderwerff once made an awesome point about Net, and this was early Netflix, but I think it still stands.

And I think this speaks to some of this where she said, you know, she was talking about, like, versus, like a Mad Men or Breaking Bad or something on hbo.

Just like those shows are aiming for it for, like, A's, and when they hit it out of the park, they're A pluses.

Whereas, like, a Netflix show, a lot of times they're happy to hit a B.

Yeah.

So when they hit it out of the park, it's a B plus, not an A plus.

And I think.

I think she's really correct about that.

And I think that comes from the.

The business side and the writing and the directing.

Yep.

We're getting a little in the weeds.

This is the kind of thing I really try to avoid on our podcast.

It's a little bit too much inside baseball kind of thing.

But I will say this.

Netflix, when they buy things and they don't produce it themselves, tend to be a lot better.

Yes.

I would also agree with that.

Well, you know, I was talking about Apple plus there.

We'll segue into non spoiler still, by the way, just for a second or two.

I say I don't know how much I cannot spoil anymore in this show.

True.

Talking about the fifth episode of Severance titled Trojan's Horse, let's just.

I will.

I will say this as a complete non spoiler, but maybe it'll set us up to get into spoilers after the break.

The episode was kind of table setting.

But Severance is high quality enough at this point that even their midpoint episode isn't a bore or chore.

Yes, it comes off a high stakes episode and you don't expect everything to be a high or you shouldn't.

I would say it's actually bad if everything is a high.

Well, everybody got really spoiled.

Or with Breaking Bad, every episode is just dizzy with.

With expectation.

But I did like this one.

It's not a board, so I'll chore.

I liked it and I was always.

Interested for my non spoiler.

I'll say I got to the end of the episode, realized the episode was ending and thought to myself, is it already over?

Yeah, I did too.

Which is a compliment.

You love that kind of feeling.

Yeah, you do.

You know it in these days, Apple ends them and gives you a little extra at the.

At the end.

I love that.

And.

And I'm appreciative of it.

But that happened to here and I thought, my God, there's so much time left.

Oh, wait.

Yeah, it's the little bonus.

Let's take a break for spoilers.

30 seconds.

We're back with spoilers all we got in spoiler section.

This week's the fifth episode of Severance titled Trojan's Horse.

So if you haven't seen, if you're not that far, maybe even if you haven't watched some of season two, you might want to take a break, come back to us and we'll welcome you with open arms right here.

Check your time stamps and you can always come back.

Yeah, Donovan.

We, we.

Oh, we got an email related to this.

So I say we got a comment and an email.

This is crazy.

This is from Tim.

Tim from SETI Bimco, whom I mentioned to you guys on Mike.

Yes, very kind guys.

They're practically friends of ours.

He says, in reference to the fourth episode of Separates, he says that.

Actually I keep calling it the snow episode in my head.

They're all snow episodes.

This one more so.

Yeah, Lowe's Hollow is the name he to be talking about here.

He says if episode four of Severance was not a virtual reality type situation, we had to spend the rest of the show dealing with sexual assault.

I guess it's sexual assault, even if it was in their heads.

But it leaves me with an extra feeling of.

And he.

Paul says dread about the show, which is as it should be.

But also yuck.

Any heli is basically violated by two people.

Or I think she.

He means violates two people.

I think that's what he means.

Those are my thoughts.

To add your great thoughts about the show.

I enjoyed listening.

And that's from Tim, specifically from Seti Bimko.

He says Tim without George.

Thanks Tim.

Yeah, thanks Tim.

I.

I think he's picked up on something that was extended this episode and I am kind of liking which is that any heli is at war.

It continues to be at war with her Audi self.

You forget that in this season, don't you?

Yes, you do.

But then when it kind of comes back just again the quite like the nature of personhood, you know, like is any Henny of heli a full person?

Is Audi heli a full person?

Or are they.

Are they each less of a person because they're separated from each other?

It's funny that we even questioned if that was her Audi down there in the office because when you see any Hilly the mule.

She's doing a good job.

She's doing such a great job.

And when you say she's doing a good job.

Yeah.

You think to yourself, man, I'm glad she's back.

It's funny how she in some ways is playing her like mannerisms.

Ish.

The same way that that Adam Scott's character does where it's just.

And to have the contrast is like when she was her Audi.

She is much.

She's much more reserved and you.

And you don't realize that until you see her any who is much more outgoing.

She want.

You know and she's.

She's thinking of others.

Right.

She.

She's tuned into their emotional states as opposed to like you know the.

The Audi heli really kind of doesn't give a.

She's using people as we saw in the last episode.

She's using these people.

Audi, Helena.

We could even Helena.

Yeah, that's thank you show by the way for.

Yeah.

You know it does give us a nice Heliar versus Helena.

Helena is strict.

Like they want everyone in Lumen to be no kindness, no joy.

Have this affectation.

And she's got it.

I'm assuming naturally by being an Egan and you just want to shake her by the shoulders and say stop being so uptight.

Yes.

So I mean it's.

It's an easy thing.

Right.

But Even her hairstyle.

Right.

With, like, the hair drawn back.

We did see a little of the reserve crack, which I thought was interesting.

And then she's like, I'm not going back in there.

Oh, yeah, you know they're trying to kill me.

Yes.

The gays.

They're trying to kill me.

She's like, my innie is trying to kill me.

Yeah.

Fascinating.

They're monsters.

Like, I've got this thing inside me that's a monster and that.

You know, we've talked about this in various ways, so forgive us for being redundant, but there is probably a part of us, the lizard brain in all of us, that really just operates to survive or kill.

Yes.

You know, mine is that it can't survive without ice cream every three days.

Just barrels of it.

And that will kill me.

What the hell's wrong with my lizard brain There?

That's going to kill me.

That's my.

That's my innie.

I suppose that's your innie.

Yeah, yeah.

Or my version of the innie.

And that's what she's getting at.

She says, irv tried to kill me.

She doesn't call him by name.

Yeah.

She says, there's another one down there trying to kill me now.

I'm not going back.

I'm really interested how this show avoids being kind of like Dr.

Jekyll and Mr.

Hyde with.

For at least, in my opinion, at least two of the characters, their innies, from what we've seen, are better and more exemplary people than their outies.

So instead of this being just like, oh, it's the darkness bottled up inside all of you.

I think Dylan and Helly, I like them.

We haven't seen enough to really know, but I like them better as the people they are inside.

Lumen.

Exactly.

Of course you do.

Yeah, that's the idea.

It's really doing something with, like, the subconscious more than just like, okay, well, your ID can get loose and destroy everything, you know?

Yeah, good point.

Beautiful angles for shooting.

Once again, used here to remind.

Yeah, I think it was.

Was the director, Sam Donovan.

It is.

I didn't know.

I.

I was wondering if it was Ben.

And then we got Stand.

Yeah.

I'm on first name basis with him and I thought he also did an excellent.

An excellent job of directing.

Yeah.

There's nothing in here that no one else is going to pick up on.

Sometimes I wonder when I jot down a thing or two about the show, I think everyone's gonna notice this, but I just want to point it out because it's in there to remind the viewer subconsciously or consciously of the story.

So it's there when Helly checks on Mark in the bathroom.

And there are two of her, thanks to a mirror, and only one of him.

And that.

And then there's another really nice one.

It's a line between Mark and Milchick later in the elevator where he is.

He's getting into his personal space.

And that.

That line is thin.

It's a literal thin line.

And it.

He crosses the thin line.

I thought there was a.

Another bit that I liked was just Ms.

Swang and Mr.

Milchick speaking to each other and literally speaking past each other.

It was like.

It was so much that.

It was like.

Because, you know, they're talking and you're supposed to think it's face to face, but the way that the camera holds, they're not.

You can't necessarily tell if they are talking face to face.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah.

Well, I didn't pick up on that.

It was just another thing where I was like.

It wasn't so obvious that it distracted.

But as I.

The more I've watched it, the more I liked it.

And of course, I'm enjoying the acting of all of you know, what I'm enjoying about the directing is that it's underscoring and amplifying the acting.

And I think that's really not easy to do.

Right.

Yeah.

It's not gonna throw anything at you that most people aren't picking up on.

So our job here is relatively easy.

Yes.

Ms.

Wang's out to get Milchick, isn't she?

Let's just say she kind of seems to have given him a vote of no confidence after.

After last episode.

Stop using those big words, Milchick.

Yeah, those were.

That was hilarious.

That's a good one.

She was.

She put in those complaints.

Oh, of course.

Yeah, of course.

She.

And she could, probably because she's pissed off that he wouldn't let her play the theremin at the funeral.

Of course, Lumen.

Lumen's musical instrument of choice is a theremin and not a violin or guitar.

It just.

It does like, the.

The show does such a good job of.

Of maintaining that.

Funny.

Where, like, they're actually arguing.

But Milchick, she's like, I practice.

Milchick's like, you can play for me later.

Which he probably never brings up.

He doesn't give a shit.

Again.

Yeah, man.

You just.

I just love Tillman's performance as Milchick.

Absolutely.

There's a lot going on with that.

Guy, I like how much and I think this episode you picked up on it.

Okay.

In an earlier episode with his reaction when he gets the paintings and, and the wave that he kind of shares a moment with.

I believe it's Natalie.

Natalie, Natalie.

And I think we're.

He is doing such a good job.

Like, if you like just, you know, do you watch the first season or whatever?

We watch one episode with this guy and it's like he's holding back.

Of course.

But like, I think that there's like depths of how much he is holding back.

I agree with that.

You know, and we start to see it again with his reaction, his questions to Natalie about the paintings and honestly his decision to get physically challenging Mark.

Because we've never seen this side of him before.

Huh.

Yet, yet.

We're not seeing anger yet from really like anger or maybe rage.

We're seeing anger, but it feels applied very precisely.

We're not seeing any loss of control.

This guy is possibly held together by God knows what.

And when he blows up, I wonder what's going to happen.

He's simmering.

That's exactly.

He's got, he's got a lot going against him right now.

But like you said, there's such depth to it because he's also lonely and desperate to talk to someone about this painting situation.

Yes.

And there's this thing where he's.

You can almost see that he's saying, look, I know we're not the stand in for every black employee, but this happened to you.

I'm the only person I know it's happened to.

We're both in the minority with being black as well as being a minority and having the paintings given to us.

Let's talk about this.

And she doesn't say anything.

She gives him a look.

She has a moment again.

She has another moment where it's like, I read her look this time as I can't talk to you about this.

That'S exactly what I.

How I read it too.

So there's.

I wish that they could just get away from the office, go have a drink, get the, get the earbuds out of their ear.

No one's listening.

No one's talking.

And just, just hash this out.

Yeah, I enjoyed this little.

Maybe it's not a subplot too, but just this additional layer for Milcheck is like he's a thinking, feeling, living human being.

And you can see that like you said, he wants.

He's almost desperate to make this connection because he's so isolated in so many other Ways.

Yeah.

He's a lonesome guy.

And then his performance review makes him feel and look even more desolate.

I like how they give you a little book afterwards with lecture.

That's so accurate.

That was so summary.

That was so good.

You get like a little book showing just how mad they are at you.

Yeah.

Perfect.

So, so passive aggressive in.

In the corporate.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Can you imagine having a job where you got a performance review, like a two to six hour performance review every month?

I'd lose my mind.

Yeah.

To order out for lunch.

I try.

Yeah.

I wouldn't be there.

Yes.

And you gotta think he's not severed.

So is he there?

He just believes in the Church of Egan, whatever it happens to be.

You know, he wants Keira's light to follow you.

Whatever is he.

That's a good.

I mean.

And we don't know enough yet to be like, is he a true believer?

Is the money just too good?

You know, it's got to be the money.

Maybe.

I mean, he.

What we know so far is he has been loyal to the company, obviously, but he is not Harmony Cobell.

And he's said that a couple times.

And he wants a couple, and he wants to do things differently.

And he's taking flack for that, for being his own person, basically.

They basically are like, you're treating these people with empathy because, you know, the company's answer to the question that we've raised several times is severed employees are not people.

Right.

They're called in a weed.

The Enni is not a full human being.

Treating them like a full human being obscures what they are.

Yep.

Well, speaking of characters, I'm truly glad we got to see Irv as soon as we do.

Yeah.

I was a little worried he'd be.

Out for the whole episode or two or three.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm glad we got to see him and what he's up to, if only because John Turturro is fantastic.

I can't wait to see this weird quasi Menageritwois.

He's going into Bert and Fields, so.

He'S being watched by Christopher Walken.

Of course.

It's excellent to rope him back in.

I'm glad that happened.

He was.

I saw sideline credits and I'm like, he's coming back today.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

He was sidelined for a minute and he was watching Irv make a phone call.

We don't know who the phone call is.

No.

Now, here's the real question behind the question.

If that opening scene is someone gathering surgical tools to fix Irv.

Do something with Irv since he got fired.

What's Irv up to with the phone call or does that mean he did not get fixed at all or.

Or whatever.

Good question.

And why are they whistling?

Edmund Fitzgerald, our.

Our co host and fellow.

Adam was joking about how quickly he tuned into that, but I was probably like too into it.

I was like, Adam Morrow wrote this.

It's now that.

That's a song about a.

One of the biggest ships in the Great Lakes and Lake Superior and that sank.

Yep.

Is it a nod?

This is a.

You know, Adam mentioned.

Do you see Michigan?

I see Minnesota.

Yeah.

Is it something like that?

The Great north there?

Feels like it, doesn't it?

A little bit.

I don't know why.

I think whistling that's a very specific song choice.

Who knows.

And we never see his face.

Never see his face.

That could be just one of those things that, you know, you don't see other people's faces who aren't that important.

Could be a red herring.

Could be.

Right, right.

Who's he using those tools on?

Is it implied it's herbs.

Any.

I don't know.

I don't know either.

That could be Helly.

I don't know.

Speaking of characters who aren't important, we got Rick and back giving this.

Giving this episode its name.

The Trojan's horse.

Yeah.

Well, what's up with that?

So you have thoughts on the title coming from his quote about trying to get his book in with them?

Yeah.

Well, for.

For one thing I thought it was a great joke just with Rickon's character where he's like almost but not quite correct.

It's like you don't call it a Trojan's horse.

It's the Trojan because it.

It's not the Trojan's horse, it's the Greek's horse.

Right, right.

You know, so he.

He inverts it and I kind of wonder if we're meant to be thinking about the ways that Heli is and some of the other and.

And Irv are.

If we're supposed to think about them as.

Are they the.

Are they the Trojans horses?

Especially in a way in the way that like Helly has been both where she was as her innie coming to on the stage and saying what she did and then as her Audi masquerading as her innie.

It's a very another choice there because they used it as the title.

I really wanted to point.

Or it could mean nothing.

I don't know.

Well, no, I felt that felt pretty significant.

It does.

Yeah.

Rick and his.

His book continues to make me crack up.

Like, it's.

And they do.

Somebody did such a good job of getting, like, a sense of, like, late 19th, early 20th century.

Like, managerial.

Like.

Like.

Like writings.

Like.

Like the people who.

I can't remember their names now, but these are the guys who pioneered, like, efficiency.

Right.

Efficiency.

Efficiency.

Efficiency.

Above all.

Somebody just nails the tone of that writing with his.

Yeah.

In his writing.

I thought that was really good.

It was.

I laughed out loud, like, a good solid chuckle at the funeral quote where Dylan mentions the toner and he says, but I did take a sip of the flavor because I forgot.

I thought that was.

I chuckled aloud.

I didn't see that coming.

Dylan remains very good.

I also, you know, just.

The show keeps.

Does have that sense of humor still.

Like, when he finishes and Milcheck goes nose.

A little sugar with your usual salt.

Yeah.

It's just so even.

He notices it.

Yeah.

It's so good.

Mark's.

Mark's anger and distance from Haley is very real.

You know, I have had.

Yeah, I guess possible dates or girlfriends in the past where I would think, well, that I can't trust them anymore, so I just better cut them off.

That's the way to go.

I think it's in an addition.

Dole twist is.

It's right.

Like, she literally has no idea.

One of our last real memories as any would have been kissing him, maybe.

Is that right?

Yep.

So she has no idea what happened.

And it's obviously too painful for him to broach.

And, like, even, you know, Dylan was kind of starting to throw some bombs that way, even with, like, you know, Miss.

Is it Clavel?

I can't, you know, like, she's your Harmony Cobell.

Oh, no, no, no.

Sorry.

The person that.

What is his.

What is his wife's name?

Adam Scott's characters.

Gemma.

It's something with a C.

Anyway, he kind of starts throwing that stuff out there.

Yeah.

It's obviously, like, the last thing in the world he.

Like, he's too.

It's too painful to talk about, but it's too painful to ignore.

So what do you do?

Distance yourself.

Yeah.

Then the episode ends with him seeing his wife again in some sort of.

What would you call it?

Hallucination?

Dream, or maybe real?

There in the hallway where he's allowed the lady who does the reintegration.

She did it for Petey.

She's doing it for Mark.

He's allowing her to live with him, much like Petey did there in the basement.

I think that's one aspect of the show.

I'm a little.

What's the word?

Tired is too strong of a word.

I'm a little over.

I'm a little ready to move on from.

Is him seeing Gemma's face in areas of his life?

Sure.

You know, I think that one needs to have some sort of answer.

Nothing definite, but that's.

We've got the question of who's Irv calling on the payphone.

You know, it feels like we've got enough questions floating.

We can answer one or two now.

Keep us.

Get us off the hook.

Yeah.

With the Gemma thing.

Something about that is not as appealing to me as some of the other questions are floating.

Do you want to send us off this week with your version of the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald showing?

Yeah.

It's a play on a kazoo.

That would be a theremin.

A theremin.

That would be great.

Yeah.

That's the end of our podcast episode.

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