Satisfying Finale of 'Shōgun' and Heavy Themes of 'Baby Reindeer' Four Episodes Deep

[00:00:00] Hey, welcome. Thanks for hitting play. I'm Blaine Duncan, editor-in-chief of the Alabama Tate website

[00:00:05] And this is the sites TV podcast taking it down. I'm excited this week springs in the air

[00:00:11] It's still nice for that week or two that last in Alabama before it gets ball scald and hot

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[00:00:27] Hopefully that's easy to remember if not just go to the site

[00:00:30] There's a subscribe button that lists all of our podcast and how you can follow them

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[00:00:39] I will start this week with a little more on the Netflix show baby reindeer episode 4 kind of goes in a different direction

[00:00:47] I could not have guessed careful viewers probably caught on to some of it

[00:00:52] Donovan and I are actually going to get into spoilers in the back half of this week's podcast episode

[00:00:58] So I'll save all of my thoughts other than this. I really did love the show

[00:01:03] It's it was so well done

[00:01:06] It handled all of its topics with care and consideration. It was funny at times

[00:01:11] It was a lot of seriousness, but it's sort of written and played in a way of I

[00:01:15] Don't know how to handle this other than just tell you or in this case show you it's deep

[00:01:20] I loved it. It's an experience

[00:01:22] It's worth your time if you've seen it check out the timestamps or transcript of this episode and go to that part of the podcast

[00:01:28] To listen to more of our thoughts on it in detail

[00:01:31] Folks if you're a wrestling fam you cannot get any better than

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[00:02:07] That's Alabama slam. I really don't have a lot here at the top this week

[00:02:12] It's been an odd week to say the least and I hope you're all well

[00:02:17] What we're gonna do is we're gonna talk just a little bit of spoiler-free stuff about showgun

[00:02:21] And then we'll get into a lot of spoilers on that finale because there's a lot to unpack

[00:02:26] There's so many things. I'm trying to figure out a when I can watch them

[00:02:31] That's kind of the trick is the win

[00:02:34] I want to get deeper into the sympathizer that second episode and third episode at this point

[00:02:39] It's kind of hovering over me. I like that first one

[00:02:42] It's good especially if you like Vietnam era or after just after Vietnam era types of shows

[00:02:48] I mentioned under the bridge last week. I've since seen the second episode of it. It's pretty good

[00:02:55] Again, I'm still on the fence about what what could this show offer me on what the book has

[00:03:00] I do think it's a little probably better than a documentary straightforward true crime documentary

[00:03:06] Because of Lily Gladstone, I think that they've expanded a little bit of the

[00:03:11] Authors stand the young character with Riley Keough. It's improving just a touch at times

[00:03:18] I was getting a little more interesting

[00:03:19] You still want to see how that mystery unraveled I've yet to check back in on manhunt on Apple TV Plus

[00:03:25] It's the tracking down of John Wilkes booth how that came to be a moment in history

[00:03:30] That's off overlooked in history classes

[00:03:33] You just get the idea that Lincoln was shot in Ford's theater by John Wilkes booth

[00:03:37] That's kind of the period at the end of that sentence, but that's not all there's a lot more plus on Apple TV Plus

[00:03:44] sticking with it

[00:03:45] There's the return to the big door prize if you watched it last year

[00:03:50] I don't know. It's kind of quirky. It was a little different had moments of poignancy, but also kind of funny

[00:03:56] I thought it started really great the first couple episodes and it dipped slowly at least dipped

[00:04:02] I may I definitely am going to watch the second season. I might check in on it

[00:04:07] I think they drop three episodes to begin sometimes that's a good sign

[00:04:11] Sometimes it's not Apple TV Plus and Hulu tend to do the two episodes and then weekly roll out and all like that

[00:04:17] That's pretty cool. It's a way to do it. I think let's go ahead and get the the guys in here

[00:04:21] Let's get Adam and Donovan here. Let's start the show

[00:04:24] I love a tape projection

[00:04:30] Adam just discovered he's been alive for

[00:04:33] Nearly 200 weeks. This is episode 195. I'm so tired

[00:04:37] We we go back that far you hear Adam and Donovan. Here we are. You know the drill

[00:04:42] It's time to say goodbye to showgun gentlemen

[00:04:46] We've covered this series from top to bottom spoiler free questions to begin though for any listeners who

[00:04:52] Still haven't watched it or maybe just aren't as hard as we are. Okay. Does the finale change your

[00:04:58] Full recommendation of the series this full-throated recommendation. We kept giving it not even a little

[00:05:03] I feel like they absolutely stuck the landing like it was so I was I was thinking like how satisfying it is

[00:05:09] Endings are hard, right? And I feel like we've gotten two shows within the past six months that absolutely stuck the landing

[00:05:16] Fargo season five

[00:05:18] Perfect ending probably like perfect last 30 minutes of that show. Excellent

[00:05:22] And this one man, what a gamble like just to put it all

[00:05:28] In like to put all your baskets in somewhat like anti climax

[00:05:32] If it was a different show you would be watching something else

[00:05:35] It kind of subverts expectations was excellent. They just felt like an exercise of restraint by the way, baby reindeer nailed its landing

[00:05:42] I know you haven't gotten that far but it's

[00:05:44] Conversation as well. I say that I don't even know what baby reindeer is

[00:05:48] Outside of which all have like sent back and forth in text and I thought when donovan was texting about it yesterday

[00:05:55] That he was like blackout drunk

[00:05:57] I was trying to

[00:05:59] No, no, no, that's a stick in the show. You had to watch it. It's a nice spring day in new england

[00:06:04] probably and donovan has gone to the fourth brewery of the afternoon and

[00:06:10] This is what's happening. I'm passed out. That is how many breweries are in my town. So that was a good guess

[00:06:16] Pretty good. No shogun. I think I'm with donovan it how many times have we had to

[00:06:22] Play apologetics when a series ends and you say it's really great

[00:06:26] But you know, how could they hope to ever land that plane and

[00:06:30] You know, that's that's when the limitations of tv as a medium

[00:06:34] Maybe really are made

[00:06:36] Concrete for a lot of showrunners a lot of

[00:06:39] Writers it seems like I just ran out of time. Oh, I just ran out of whatever it is not with shogun

[00:06:45] This was very very good. It asked very big questions introduced a lot of plot and a lot of

[00:06:53] Setting and somehow threaded the needle got the plane on the ground

[00:06:58] I think part of what helped it too was that

[00:07:01] The whole series pretty much the whole time has relied on character of spectacle. Absolutely

[00:07:07] It's a gorgeous show and there are some great great scenes

[00:07:10] But really when it came down to it the work that they had done every episode

[00:07:15] Is paid off because you're you want to see what are these people going to do?

[00:07:19] How are they going to react to this? What's going to happen?

[00:07:21] Let's label it spoilers just in case this next line I say isn't for years who

[00:07:26] Want to hear anything specific there here go spoilers

[00:07:29] So if you're not caught up on everything shogun related the entire series is just finished. Yeah, and if you're not

[00:07:36] What the hell is wrong with you?

[00:07:38] What are you doing exercising? Here's the thing and I'll say this just in case, you know

[00:07:42] They're still leftover people not realizing they're in spoiler turn it because this is kind of vague

[00:07:47] If you go into the show thinking you're watching an action show

[00:07:50] You're going to be disappointed if you go in realizing this is a drama

[00:07:54] You're gonna love it. Yeah

[00:07:55] Not that they didn't have some like they had like three really good action scenes, but again, that's like three

[00:08:01] It's not an action over, you know 10 episodes as you were talking about

[00:08:05] Character development driving things, you know, they they hint at the possibility of a larger action

[00:08:11] Sequence, you know when they're learning how to shoot cannons and and then the

[00:08:16] Correct me if I'm wrong here. I know we had a fight scene last week that was excellent

[00:08:20] but

[00:08:20] That almost worked on a different level than

[00:08:24] The cannons being pointed suddenly at ashitos men and the cannonballs flying in and the gruesome

[00:08:30] You're thinking oh, this is like a taste if this was Game of Thrones

[00:08:33] We're just getting a hint of what is going to happen in two or three episodes

[00:08:37] Yeah, and that that was kind of the climax of that. Yeah it was now that it is spoiler time adam and donovan will be reciting their death poems

[00:08:48] That lovable scam, of course you're

[00:08:50] I like that his biggest regret is like I really got good at my poetry right before this

[00:08:55] Like three hours. He wanted to owe me to say that's fantastic

[00:09:00] He looked at him like he was fishing for compliments

[00:09:05] Man, how much did how great to focus on the actor? How great is the guy who played yabashigi?

[00:09:10] Because he had to do a lot of different things in this episode

[00:09:15] Honestly, I still kind of like them. You know, it's like you're an asshole and you're not going to change but

[00:09:22] I fell in love with both him and the actor for toran aga

[00:09:24] Toran aga in a much different way in that he could smile without ever smiling. Yeah, that was so impressive

[00:09:31] I was like wow, okay, so he's entertained but he is not going to show you he's entertained. I get it

[00:09:36] I definitely think uh the guy who plays well all the actors are excellent toran aga is great

[00:09:41] I was

[00:09:42] Thinking like I've never seen the original one

[00:09:44] But I know that to shira mifuni is the the toran aga characters

[00:09:47] I'm like well that that's probably hard to to measure up against

[00:09:50] But I think you know that's if you got to go up against the best he's given a hell of a performance

[00:09:56] Yeah, it takes me to my next question though perfectly for you

[00:09:59] Who is who is the protagonist of the series? You've got three choices. I would think is it toran aga black thorn or mariko

[00:10:07] Fuji because

[00:10:08] Because she was the one I was happiest to see in the last episode. I wasn't sure we're gonna see her again

[00:10:13] Man

[00:10:14] The sadness of her story just punched me in the gut in this finale for some reason

[00:10:18] I don't know why it didn't catch up to me until then

[00:10:21] This is completely

[00:10:23] Not at all related to your question

[00:10:25] But i'm bursting so I have to say it. I just absolutely love the scene where he's sitting outside his house

[00:10:30] And she comes to sit next to him

[00:10:33] And they sit in silence for a moment and then he looks over and he says no translator

[00:10:37] And she just kind of nods. It's just like ah, but if you watch it

[00:10:40] He does look to his right where mariko. Yeah, where she would have been it's so it's so subtle

[00:10:46] Yeah, it's so good reporting in from reddit here a few folks. Yeah, that's our guy

[00:10:51] Yeah, I have done the frame by frame comparison of a few of those moments

[00:10:55] Sure where they use the similar composition as just minus one person

[00:11:00] Yeah

[00:11:01] And they let it be silent and we all already know before he says

[00:11:05] No translator that yeah, there's there's a third person

[00:11:10] Absolutely gut wrenchy my wife cried no less than four times during this finale

[00:11:15] Deservedly so I would say I think I feel like he was very earned

[00:11:18] The finale does about two or three more callbacks, which I'll mention those in due time

[00:11:23] But do you have an opinion on the protagonist?

[00:11:26] My answer is yes. Yeah all three it took the all three

[00:11:30] The father the son the holy spirit

[00:11:33] One of the kind of dual things about having the canvas to sprawl on is that in a very real way

[00:11:38] It was mariko's story in a very real way

[00:11:41] It was blackthorne's story and in a very real way they were just part of torin aga's story

[00:11:45] See, I think torin aga is the

[00:11:48] The monolith that is not experiencing change personally. Maybe he is we don't really see it

[00:11:54] I'm sure we could sit here and parse this out and argue against what I just said

[00:11:57] But mariko you you obviously see change and blackthorn is the most dramatic

[00:12:03] So if you're if you're talking about a character arc in the traditional

[00:12:06] Let's chart the hero's journey or whatever then it has to be one of those two

[00:12:10] Yeah, torin aga is definitely playing his cards pretty close to his chest the whole yeah the whole series

[00:12:16] I think I would argue that blackthorn does experience change. We didn't say that he

[00:12:21] We guessed that he really wasn't an episode or two ago and you get a sense that he's understanding

[00:12:27] The culture now and even trying to make himself a part of it

[00:12:31] I think that yeah, he's experienced dramatic personal change

[00:12:35] And I think that they they used the

[00:12:37] Vision of himself as an old man how they played with that in the final episode to really drive that home

[00:12:43] Uh, I read a pretty good review on the ringer talking about noticing especially in the last episode

[00:12:49] Obviously he's changed a lot

[00:12:50] But a lot of what he relies on in the last this last episode is stuff that mariko taught him

[00:12:55] Yeah further emphasizing his change and her absence

[00:12:58] And man, I loved that framing device of him as the old man because like is it real? Is it not real? Who knows?

[00:13:07] I thought it was great

[00:13:09] Yeah, when he lets go of the crucifix and that's been the thing that you think

[00:13:12] You know they're teasing you all along like well, he can't he can't die now. He can't lose this

[00:13:16] He can't whatever and he he lets it go that was authentic personal

[00:13:21] Development, I mean, I just thought it was so great how they set it up to like very much be like

[00:13:27] He's imagining himself at the end of his life, right and thinking about like how does he want his life to have gone?

[00:13:31] Does he want to have held on to that thing his whole life other things too?

[00:13:34] Of course, but like is one of those things and he does drop it

[00:13:38] Yeah, and it's accepting that in that version of the story. He's made it back to england. He has succeeded in whatever he's done

[00:13:44] He's in a looked to be in a pretty nice room with grandkids around them

[00:13:48] And this is the vision of a man who we met in episode one

[00:13:53] We met in episode one. This is not the man that's still there

[00:13:56] Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think maybe that dream of leaving

[00:14:01] Achieving whatever he needed to achieve to be in that room

[00:14:05] He had already evolved past that point, but that was his recognition of

[00:14:09] I have to let that part go like it was the last part of that old shell to go away

[00:14:13] Was your mind ever thinking look if they gonna get them swords out they bear hurry the fuck up, man

[00:14:19] Did you ever look at your watch and think god damn they gonna have fighting ten minutes ten minutes left they gonna fight it out

[00:14:25] But no no didn't know it was an excellently paced episode. Oh, yeah

[00:14:29] It was a peaceful almost calm finale almost call it like contemplative

[00:14:35] That's nice, you know it was peaceful, but I think instead of calm

[00:14:39] It was contemplative which I really dug

[00:14:43] It's almost as if the show was saying if you're smart enough

[00:14:46] Thousands of people don't have to die, but you do have to break some eggs to get to this peace omelet

[00:14:51] I really like how it left that up in the air because like I'm sorry donna when this paul blaine was proud of that one

[00:14:58] Yeah, I had my yaba shaggy moment where I was like, huh?

[00:15:02] I'm not giving it to you

[00:15:05] No, I like how they really did kind of leave that up right because like

[00:15:08] In truth in the historical japan right the big battle that tornaga imagines does happen

[00:15:13] It's the largest battle in feudal japan

[00:15:16] uh japanese history, I mean

[00:15:18] And it leads to the establishment of the toku ga shogunate which rules until I think 1868 when the

[00:15:25] Emperor comes back into power

[00:15:27] And so it does and it does usher in peace as at least as opposed to like the feudal warring states

[00:15:32] Look at our historian here. But yeah, yeah, I went on wikipedia, but uh

[00:15:37] But yabushige, you know as he's asking it as he's trying, you know

[00:15:41] He's like, oh I could have seen so much more like I love the bit where he's like

[00:15:45] Were you just as ruthless as all of us all along? Were you just playing the game?

[00:15:49] And he said why should I tell the future to a dead man? Like it doesn't matter. It's gonna happen either way

[00:15:54] And he also gives that great line that he doesn't control the win. He just listens to it. Yeah, that's just

[00:16:01] That hold man that was so good guys

[00:16:04] That that line specifically why should I tell the future to a dead man being y'all have of course seen the internet

[00:16:10] Reminding us that that's what he said about tornaaga in an early episode. Yeah, that's fantastic

[00:16:15] That's the there's the second callback we were gonna mention. Yeah, hopefully we're gonna talk directly about that

[00:16:20] Playing you're a shakespeare reading man. Very much. Yeah

[00:16:22] Did yabushige is like derangement actually because it actually kind of reminded me of shakespeare

[00:16:28] Oh, wow. He's like in the pond, you know the way some characters will or even like afilia after

[00:16:33] You know after she goes nuts and but like that kind of derangement

[00:16:37] I don't know why but I just kind of doing like yeah, like this is this is really working for me

[00:16:40] That fits. Yeah. Yeah, he it could have been grief. It could have been putting on because his sheetos there

[00:16:46] And he just doesn't know what to say to him anymore. He could be in coast. I thought that he was supposed to be right

[00:16:51] Yeah, he was in an explosion. We can't hear very true there

[00:16:56] So much of the show reminded me of a actually arthur miller's the crucible

[00:16:59] You know, there are wheels within wheels in this village and fires within fires

[00:17:03] Which was that that was more so in tornauga's head. This guy's got it all figured out

[00:17:08] He's got he knows exactly what's gonna happen here. I am glad we got to see heads on a spike one last time

[00:17:13] Thanks, tornauga. No, hoag. I wouldn't be happy, right?

[00:17:18] That was such a nice

[00:17:19] The the question that we were kind of asking last week is tornauga the good guy

[00:17:23] Yeah, right not protagonist. Like is he good, right? Right? No

[00:17:29] No, it's the answer

[00:17:30] He's testing blackthorn by torturing and killing a bunch of civilians in this village. Yes

[00:17:38] It's insane. Yeah, he really does see the the lower class as

[00:17:43] pawns for sure, which would be a subject of his

[00:17:47] Time

[00:17:47] Yeah

[00:17:48] The world of you almost being like that like your life has meaning as a means to my end

[00:17:53] Yeah, your life has meaning as serving me. I honestly felt like that was one of the excellent

[00:17:59] tensions when he

[00:18:01] Is thinking about mariko. He used her. He probably like whether you know, he I don't know if he centered her death

[00:18:07] I don't think he did intentionally but he did

[00:18:09] Knowing that she could very well die

[00:18:12] And I do think the actor does a good job of what I think is also expressing like genuine pain and regret

[00:18:18] Like regret that she's dead not regret over anything that I did

[00:18:21] No, he doesn't feel bad about that at all right, right?

[00:18:23] Like right because her life like her life has meaning and less

[00:18:28] Because of this amazing act that she did on my behalf, but he also gave her what she wanted. Yeah, it's true

[00:18:35] You've been wanting to die. Let's do it this way and you can help everyone

[00:18:38] Not just commit sepaku and that's it. They really nailed

[00:18:43] They'll just go away that like everything everyone is doing makes sense

[00:18:47] And there's such another

[00:18:49] Level of wondering, you know just the emotions are so conflicted. I almost thought they kind of

[00:18:54] Spotlighted it with the uh, I can't remember his name the samurai who's the spy pretends to be the little fisherman

[00:18:59] You know, he's like i'm a samurai and i'm a christian

[00:19:03] You know, he's like the both and like I like the thing like both these things are two these two true these two competing

[00:19:08] Things perfect example

[00:19:11] Hey, how excited did you guys get that we almost got the buddy cop with yabu shijie and and the anjin when he says

[00:19:17] What's your country's name? Tell me

[00:19:20] Oh england y'all were like I bet y'all were on the edge of your seat thinking go to england. Let's go

[00:19:25] Like blaine predicted this

[00:19:28] He even learned how to pronounce the name england

[00:19:32] First teach me to dive. Yeah, dude come on. We're buddies now

[00:19:35] Oh

[00:19:38] Did you want a moment where the anjin tackles yabu shijie and beats him for mariko's death? Not really

[00:19:44] No, I think it would have mattered. I think he knows it wouldn't have mattered

[00:19:47] Yeah, does he ever

[00:19:49] Fully recognize that or is he like wait, he does have a look on his face

[00:19:53] Uh, this is black thorny talking about where he's like

[00:19:56] Did I hear that right? Did he did he see responsible for mariko's death?

[00:20:00] He has that look they're like a million times during this episode

[00:20:03] Where I just wanted to be like how much does he understand?

[00:20:06] Because we know he understands like he understands enough japanese to understand that fujiji's gonna go become a nine

[00:20:11] Which he tells him that he picks up on the word right? That's really all you need in that conversation

[00:20:15] He doesn't know like if it's fast and complex. It's still be so I really like that element of ambiguity

[00:20:20] May tape the camera sold that very well to the way that they would include him in different shots

[00:20:26] When yes fast conversation was happening

[00:20:28] It's he didn't have a glazed look, but it's the look of a man who's like really trying to read physicality and

[00:20:36] And language, you know, there's there's also like the very real sense of physical danger still

[00:20:41] Because he doesn't know he's involved in a fairly controversial thing

[00:20:46] The man being blamed was right next to him. So

[00:20:50] How does he come out of all of this?

[00:20:52] Obviously it works out okay for him this time

[00:20:53] The third callback or repetition is fujiji

[00:20:57] Was told

[00:20:58] In episode one or two let your hands be the last to hold her or in this case her husband and baby

[00:21:04] She says the same to black thorn in the boat to let go of mariko tough

[00:21:10] It ended up being a battle of the minds and torin angus the winner

[00:21:13] How was an episode that seriously I think was centered around a lot of anti climax so

[00:21:19] gripping

[00:21:20] Because like this episode is just like all it's all fall out and it was just great

[00:21:25] Yeah, but it also wasn't in the same way that

[00:21:29] HBO kind of made their name with on doing the the penultimate episode being the

[00:21:33] The drama one like obviously there's a lot of drama last week, but a lot of stuff still happened this week

[00:21:38] Yeah, yeah. No, that is true

[00:21:40] Like all the knots got fully tightened

[00:21:42] I suppose you could say instead of just pure violence or spectacle

[00:21:46] There there weren't really questions left

[00:21:49] You know, maybe maybe a few but you kind of the conflict was not resolved last week and now it is

[00:21:55] Yeah, I'm gonna run one by y'all to make it clearer for myself torin angus sinks black thorns ship

[00:22:01] But does he continually want to do that?

[00:22:04] Just because he likes him and he wants him to hang keep some busy

[00:22:08] I also don't worry. I'll sink it again. Is that because he's like I like the guy my little british sisyphus

[00:22:14] Yeah

[00:22:16] I think there's that in element of that and I also think that uh

[00:22:19] Like he's found him useful before and so he's like I'll probably continue to have a use for him, right?

[00:22:24] Yeah, because torin angus like well, he amuses me and he kept my enemies really distracted

[00:22:28] Which he did a great job of distracting his enemies. You know, he's like, oh go build me a fleet

[00:22:33] You know, I assume it's just like i'm gonna find use for you another pawn in torin angus

[00:22:38] I think it's like he won't discard a tool as long as he can

[00:22:41] Make some use of that. All right. Well and he is

[00:22:44] Very much interested in his own authority. So it may just be to remind him

[00:22:49] You you were not in charge of anything here

[00:22:51] I kind of concluded that he was like this guy's my buddy, but I can't steep to that level to call him such

[00:22:56] I just want him here to hang out. Don't you dare go back to him? You're my buddy

[00:23:00] He's like, I'll never let him know how much he cracks me up

[00:23:04] Trying to kill himself in front of me. I mean, he did save his life and we'd got the only smile of the season

[00:23:10] Where he hands in the swords that's like a nick sabon life. I smiled. Yeah, it was right those things are rare

[00:23:16] There you go. By the way, I'll go ahead and admit to listeners

[00:23:19] My death poem will will just be a meme of larry bird nick sabon and barack obama. I do something. I don't know figure it out

[00:23:27] The images of torin anga though each time it seemed like was just displays of loneliness

[00:23:31] So although he won it's kind of a sad ending. He does get his baby boy. He's happy about that

[00:23:37] It does feel like there's a Henry IV ray like heavy lies the head that wears the crown element or a like

[00:23:44] Just in very much the same way that Henry IV is is by himself talking to himself

[00:23:50] In that scene torin aga is by himself reflecting

[00:23:54] He's won

[00:23:55] But what's it get you adam has donovan just really showed us up as a historian and shakespearian

[00:24:01] here

[00:24:02] No, because you would have just consulted our college apartment's refrigerator to find who was the real shakespear expert

[00:24:10] Oh moral in that next week

[00:24:14] Very very shortly donovan

[00:24:17] We were both seniors and overwhelmed by the amount that we were having to read and I just chose to

[00:24:23] Listen close to how they were wanting to talk about king lear in class

[00:24:27] And then turns out we had to write a paper on it and I wrote it and got a higher grade than donovan did so

[00:24:32] I put it on I did the reading logically. I I put it on the refrigerator to be fair donovan has yet to commit sip a coup over this

[00:24:41] I wasn't you find a deadline. Oh, well, you're kind of wearing that that that lacks attitude I had out here

[00:24:47] It's been a long time

[00:24:51] Final thoughts on showgun. This is it for us. What a great 10 weeks

[00:24:55] I'm so glad that something that I initially said like oh, it's a big swing for the fenchus show

[00:25:00] Actually ended up being a big swing for the fenchus show right it never really lost a step

[00:25:05] Even on this podcast what you have to be like, oh man first three episodes great. Then we come back four weeks later like yeah

[00:25:11] Well, I'm not good. Sorry guys. Also. Here's my other thing. I looked at the guy who plays john blackthorn

[00:25:17] He's a year younger than I am. I would have thought he's five years older than me. I hate this

[00:25:22] I'll see his a great reddish name cosmo jarvis. Cosmo jarvis a parent musician, right?

[00:25:27] Not really actor quiet. He's he's been in stuff. He was in peaky blinders. I think he had a oh a role in that small role

[00:25:34] Okay, he gave a great

[00:25:36] Interview that i'm not remembering what publication it was with but he talked about how

[00:25:41] Incredible the process wasn't making the show like an incredible 10 or 11 months

[00:25:46] He really got into character and then you know, they were saying what was it?

[00:25:51] What was it like? Are you proud of of how it's gone and he said well, I'm an unemployed actor now

[00:25:56] He just kind of had this melancholy about you know, now it's like locked in a place in time that he can't go back to

[00:26:01] Unemployed hopefully not for long. I'll watch him. Hopefully not. I got a question for you guys before we move on

[00:26:08] That i've been thinking about a lot before he you know sticks the the knife the sword in his belly

[00:26:13] Abu shiggy looks back and grins

[00:26:16] Actually, ass he does it

[00:26:17] Is he is he doing this because he's finally getting his death moment or

[00:26:22] I've seen it floated online. He has finally put together

[00:26:26] Just how thorough tournaga's plans were

[00:26:29] And even he realizes he was a pawn and so well understood by this guy that he kind of let him

[00:26:36] Fly out calls chaos in a good way

[00:26:39] And then he came back and ordered him to kill himself

[00:26:41] And so he ended up serving the guy anyway, even in his own, you know ass backwards way

[00:26:47] I see it as more of the latter

[00:26:49] With with

[00:26:50] Additionally like an ounce of defiance mixed in there mixed in there too because he's like locking eyes with toranaga's

[00:26:57] So you think was more defiance than like oh man

[00:27:00] No, I think I think it's like defiance and also like yeah like rueful

[00:27:04] Like he knew exactly what he was doing. Yeah the whole time

[00:27:07] I think that's a really good read

[00:27:09] My personal take is that he was looking back on him giving him the smile because he knew toranaga would hear his death poem

[00:27:17] There it is

[00:27:19] Well guys, what fun what will be the next show for us?

[00:27:23] I don't know on the back half of this episode of the podcast donovan and our grandkids talk specifics about

[00:27:29] Baby reindeer the first half of it and it's pretty good too. It's pretty good. It's pretty good

[00:27:34] I think you guys are like there is no back after this podcast. Y'all are just messing with me that this show exists

[00:27:40] Dude

[00:27:41] I'm telling you I can't wait for you to watch the show open your netflix app

[00:27:45] You could have gotten to that too. The name makes a lot of sense after the first episode

[00:27:50] Yeah, about midway through makes perfect sense

[00:27:53] And just hearing it and then like reading the name and then looking like any synopsis of what the show is about

[00:27:58] Like your text yesterday makes no sense. Yes. Yes all of that adds up

[00:28:04] We'll say goodbye to adam. Uh, we'll take a quick little break and we'll identify the station

[00:28:09] 90.7 wvufm

[00:28:12] wait

[00:28:13] RIP. All right. Oh, is it dead? No, I don't know. Okay. It should be. I was like you could tell me it is but

[00:28:25] Okay, we're back my buddy Donovan and I are here to talk to at least

[00:28:29] Some of the netflix series baby reindeer actually the first four episodes

[00:28:33] If you haven't made it that far we will spoil it

[00:28:36] I talked about at the beginning of the podcast. This is spoiler territory

[00:28:40] You know, I detailed my coming to the show

[00:28:43] At the top of last week's podcast to quote Bob Dylan. It was a matter of timing and the timing was right

[00:28:49] I'm so glad I watched it and I've seen it in full

[00:28:52] It certainly colors my opinion of the show, but I won't explain it

[00:28:57] It kind of slowly came out of nowhere

[00:28:59] I saw a little buzz online then maybe like a headline

[00:29:03] And then I started watching it and then people started posting about it more people messaged me about it

[00:29:08] Now every website and news site is covering

[00:29:12] It's veracity and details and forming opinions on it

[00:29:16] So donovan you went into this rather blind right other than just pretty blind. I looked up

[00:29:22] The synopsis

[00:29:23] Saw that it's based on his one man play one person play

[00:29:28] He'd done a couple variations on my understanding of that play is that like it's the British equivalent of whatever like off off off off

[00:29:36] Broadway is yeah, it's a French comedy show. Yeah, that's what that's that's sort of his style

[00:29:43] It's Richard Gad who actually plays Donnie on the show

[00:29:47] If you just listen to spoilers because that's how you figure out a show is worth your time

[00:29:50] Then you're in here Richard Gad's a comic and he's a Scottish

[00:29:55] Comic who who's based out of London. I think and he had done this French comedy show out of

[00:30:00] Edinburgh

[00:30:01] And it morphed into his

[00:30:04] One man play you could call it

[00:30:08] The goings on

[00:30:10] The plot is about you know, he is himself. He's the comic but he's working in a bar bartending a lady comes in

[00:30:17] He kind of feels sorry for her. He feels a little pity

[00:30:20] And gives her a free cup of tea and we're off to the races

[00:30:24] So I think I texted Blaine this

[00:30:26] To but I think anyone who's ever worked any kind of public service like my colleagues who have worked

[00:30:31] Years and years in public libraries

[00:30:34] They would see the scene and like understand it just because it's like like one of my co-workers is like

[00:30:39] Would people tell me things?

[00:30:41] At the desk

[00:30:42] I don't make any reaction because it's like they'll say something. I think it's a joke. They're serious

[00:30:47] They'll say something at least like people are insane, right? So that kind of like

[00:30:53] Managing someone who's like not like really like dangerous or aggressive

[00:30:57] But like there's just something off about them and then you find out. Uh-oh

[00:31:01] I gave them too much

[00:31:03] And now i'm stuck. Hmm. Hmm

[00:31:06] Which is what happens to him in the first episode he gives her the tea and eventually starts giving she comes in every day

[00:31:11] And he gives her a free

[00:31:13] Diet coke or something that she never even really drinks

[00:31:16] No, it's just an excuse to be there

[00:31:18] She figures out his website gets his email obviously from there because he's a comic trying to get shows

[00:31:25] And she starts blasting him weird things pretty quickly

[00:31:30] And that's where the title of the show comes from. She calls him her baby reindeer

[00:31:35] In the series of very misspelled emails

[00:31:39] All of which

[00:31:41] End with some variation of sent from my iphone, but she doesn't have an iphone

[00:31:46] Something's fishy

[00:31:47] Yeah, it's just increasingly misspelled sent from my iphone

[00:31:52] Right and she doesn't seem like she's drinking or anything. She's just that wild with her spelling. That's what he points out

[00:31:59] Right like he's like it wasn't that she misspelled hard words and there was no consistency and you can

[00:32:06] As it goes by really quickly you can see that the word the hard word she spelled correctly was cunnilingus

[00:32:13] Exactly yeah, I get increasingly sexualized

[00:32:18] She's she's stalking him in a roundabout way to get that moment in

[00:32:23] One of the second or third episode where his mates there at the pub grab his

[00:32:28] Phone didn't rip the true the true villains of the show if you ask. Oh, no doubt

[00:32:32] They grab his phone and they reply to one of the emails basically saying something about anal sex to her

[00:32:38] Asking her asking her for it right. That's right. It gets worse and worse

[00:32:43] She stalks him physically tracks him down

[00:32:47] And we think it's somewhere in the second or third episode where she actually gropes him in public

[00:32:53] Well public it's it's not time by the river but it's

[00:32:58] The canal that she knows that he walks down every day gropes him tries to get him to kiss her

[00:33:04] He never kisses her by the way. He never feels that sort of feeling for but here's the thing at the end of episode one

[00:33:10] You're pretty much in real realization that he

[00:33:13] Likes the attention because there's this moment on he gets a facebook friend request and you're just thinking

[00:33:19] There's no way he's gonna click that but he does and that's how it ends

[00:33:22] And I mean even as we go a little further into the

[00:33:26] The show we find that people like his ex-girlfriend have his number

[00:33:30] In a way that he doesn't seem to have of himself namely. She's like, yeah, of course, this doesn't happen

[00:33:35] You love the drama. It's a distraction

[00:33:39] Essentially, which I think is a very important element

[00:33:42] To yeah, you do understand pretty instantly that I brought it up in last week's podcast episode that to him

[00:33:49] It's about the attention. He doesn't get anywhere else. He the acceptance

[00:33:55] He's probably mistranslating it for love

[00:33:58] I think too. I mean like yeah like with his career

[00:34:02] Right, like he wants to be a comedian right like if you have to have a certain kind of personality

[00:34:06] Right to want to stand up in front of people and make them laugh

[00:34:09] And I think it's like super telling that like she's the one who's laughing at him

[00:34:14] Like right like she has a really loud really unique laugh, right? Yeah very boys. You're is that from her

[00:34:19] All the time and that's gotta be right you have to just figure that's like pushing some kind of button in his brain

[00:34:25] Right. Oh, yeah, he's like, yeah, this is what I've been going for

[00:34:28] This is what I want to make people do right her stalking

[00:34:32] To him is adoration to a degree

[00:34:34] But he also realized this is straight up stalking. Yeah, I mean this is a this is this show is really great because you know, there's a lot of

[00:34:42] Or at least this was farther. I've gotten there's a lot of

[00:34:44] voiceovers where he's just kind of like arguing or explaining something to himself in his own mind

[00:34:49] And this is a show for every one of us who have lain awake at night and thought why the hell did I do?

[00:34:55] I know I shouldn't have done that

[00:34:57] Why the hell did I do that especially if there's another person involved? Yeah

[00:35:00] Yep, this is this is really great where he's like the whole time

[00:35:05] He knows like I shouldn't really shouldn't have done many things not just one thing

[00:35:09] You know what to quote the apostle apostle paul

[00:35:12] I do that which I would not do and that which I would do I do would not do

[00:35:15] You know, it's it's essentially like it's it's a it's a very human thing, right?

[00:35:20] Yeah, it is you get why he does it at the very end of the first episode

[00:35:24] So you're not left in the dark about his motives though

[00:35:29] You do get more revelations as the show progresses one of which is that groping moment, which I misread

[00:35:37] No, I don't know. Let me backtrack that I will say that I didn't misread it

[00:35:41] I just took it for what it was but a careful viewer

[00:35:46] Noticed something and I think you did too, right? You want to explain what maybe what you saw or what other careful viewers saw

[00:35:53] Well, I don't I don't know, you know what you know kind of colors things

[00:35:56] But what I saw in that moment was this is this is a huge trigger for him, right?

[00:36:00] That's it. This is like something has like gone. He's kind of having a not really but he's kind of having a panic attack

[00:36:06] Right, she's like he can she can feel his heart and then to you know, like he's acting

[00:36:11] The questions that he asked himself are the kinds of questions that victims of assault

[00:36:16] That's it will ask themselves

[00:36:18] That's it which and reasons that victims of assault will not come forward because they're afraid they will be asked those questions

[00:36:25] And you know what in many cases they are what were you wearing? Why didn't you fight back?

[00:36:28] Why don't you say no, you know that stuff like that it carries us into the fourth episode before we get there

[00:36:33] I will say that the voiceovers are perfectly done. I really enjoy them. Yeah

[00:36:38] Sometimes voiceovers get a bad rep as a one-man play at some point

[00:36:44] It makes perfect sense to have to have them here. It's all really about him and what he went through

[00:36:49] It's his story

[00:36:51] So you I think you got to have that. Yeah, I think so. I think it's uh

[00:36:55] Like in that way like it's it's earned and it's not because I feel like voiceover is really bad when it's telling you

[00:37:02] Like if you're like, I'm using this as a lazy device because I'm afraid that people didn't get it

[00:37:07] As opposed to I'm using this to

[00:37:10] Compliment what I am showing you. Yeah, or just use it by talking directly to you lazy

[00:37:15] And also in the I could have shown you this rather than yeah, exactly exactly

[00:37:20] Episode four is the relevantory episode one of them out of that honestly get a little bit more relevantory as they go

[00:37:25] It's a little longer of an episode so that might make you realize some things up. It runs about 45 minutes

[00:37:32] Plus the big content warning before you start it. That's true

[00:37:36] Yeah, you really yes the content warning and you think well, what could that be? But yeah

[00:37:41] You're not 100 sure what's gonna happen in this episode

[00:37:43] Yeah careful viewers though who noticed the uh him having the panic attack

[00:37:47] Which I just read as he doesn't want to be in this situation and he's very unattractive of this lady and stop it

[00:37:53] But there's a lot more than that. Yeah, I

[00:37:57] Know and I was like is something like is this like surely not with Martha, right?

[00:38:01] Right me too. I'm like there's something else going on right me too

[00:38:04] But I'm not that sad of a viewer. I just watched stuff a lot of time the same here and then I

[00:38:09] I have the hindsight moments

[00:38:12] Yeah, same me too. Yeah, you get the information and it is a flashback sort of episode where

[00:38:19] Donnie is in Edinburgh. Yeah, I think so for this comedy festival

[00:38:24] He's trying to put on a show and you know make it big or make it a little bigger than he is get some jobs

[00:38:30] Maybe even riding and he bumps into one of the head writers of a show over there

[00:38:34] Did you was that a real show? Do you know did you?

[00:38:37] Oh, I assumed he was making yeah, I did too

[00:38:40] So that like for legal reasons, you know

[00:38:43] So, yeah

[00:38:44] He bumps into a writer of a show

[00:38:46] That he adores the show and he talks to the writer. He knows he knows the name

[00:38:50] But obviously didn't know the face

[00:38:52] And they become fast friends friends who are frequently doing drugs

[00:38:57] In the case of Donnie. He's really just getting fed the drugs

[00:39:01] You know, he kind of feels like oh god. I gotta to hang with this guy got to do the drugs

[00:39:06] It's like he's given off an Elon Musk vibe. Oh, how so?

[00:39:11] Oh, uh the New York Times or wall street journal

[00:39:14] I forget which one ran a report about how

[00:39:17] People in Elon Musk companies are increasingly uncomfortable because they feel like they have to do drugs to have access to him. Is that true?

[00:39:23] Yes. Oh, I mean he disputes it. He's he disputes it of course, but yeah

[00:39:28] Like investors are getting investors are getting worried like smoking weed are much more serious

[00:39:33] Oh, yeah, smoking weed is where it begins apparently

[00:39:37] Which is kind of sort of like this one. No, I think it starts with cocaine or something

[00:39:41] Yeah, it starts with coke for this one thing. So this guy, you know, I

[00:39:44] Instantly got the vibe man. This guy is

[00:39:48] Attracted to Donnie and and then I mean very quickly after that you start realizing

[00:39:55] He's trying to

[00:39:57] Lore him in a very very not like I'm trying to date you

[00:40:02] I want to go out with you. I'm trying to date you not like I'm trying to be my friend more like I'm I'm trying to

[00:40:07] To wield power over you. Mm-hmm, right?

[00:40:10] Which is exactly what like with the drugs with the drugs. I'm trying to control you

[00:40:15] I'm going to assault you or and I'm still early in the episode

[00:40:19] I'm gonna either go to assault you or I'm going to

[00:40:22] Use you in some manner at least at the very least this guy's just played with such

[00:40:28] Sleeve just this calm

[00:40:30] Sleeve it's just icky

[00:40:33] It's the kind of performance that like I like performances that

[00:40:37] Where you can just kind of see the pair characters pass, you know and one of the paths with this is like

[00:40:43] Oh, this isn't the first time he's done this right

[00:40:45] Man, yes, you're this. This is not that he's too. He knows exactly what he's doing

[00:40:51] He's done this a time or 15. Yeah

[00:40:55] Donnie you might even be screaming at your television. How are you not seeing this Donnie?

[00:41:00] This is not what this has happened. This is full on horror movie like don't go in the basement Donnie

[00:41:06] You know, yep, you keep thinking that

[00:41:09] But Donnie's blinded by the idea that he might get the right for a television show

[00:41:13] Which is one of his aspirations probably. Yeah, absolutely. That's almost

[00:41:19] I mean obviously well so so the the element of

[00:41:23] I'm using your own

[00:41:25] Dream and aspirate like this good thing. I'm taking this good thing from you and I'm making it bad

[00:41:31] Is almost like that's like almost like that's such a violation

[00:41:35] You know, it's so miserable and of course any one of us in that situation would hold out hope

[00:41:41] Your first meeting at this writer you think oh, he's kind of savvy and

[00:41:45] Chill, you know because he walks up to him at the at the bar and he says yeah, that show did suck

[00:41:50] You're talking about right and he's like, yeah, it did suck. He's like, yeah

[00:41:54] Well, I'm the guy and you're thinking oh, he's he's kind of savvy and and maybe even

[00:41:58] Kind of cool button. It is quick that you unravel what's going on behind the curtains in this guy's head

[00:42:05] Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty quick turn and it gets to the point where molesting Donnie as Donnie's

[00:42:11] drugged heavily and it it results in a rape and you have this such a

[00:42:17] Devastating moment where Donnie says even though he raped me

[00:42:21] I still hung out at his apartment for three or four more days because I

[00:42:26] He's kind of in denial. Maybe a little bit about the rape just a little maybe but it was much more so like

[00:42:31] I still wanted what he could offer that is pretty heartbreaking. Yeah, I think you've you've got it

[00:42:37] Right where it's like part of it is like if I

[00:42:40] Let things change then I have to acknowledge that this happened

[00:42:44] Until I then I also have to acknowledge that like

[00:42:47] I was being used

[00:42:49] He was using my dream

[00:42:51] And it's not going to happen

[00:42:53] Then Donnie goes back at home where he and his girlfriend are living with her mom

[00:42:57] She's a sweet girlfriend seems like no big issues in their life

[00:43:03] Together kind of crumbles and it ruins

[00:43:06] What they have and he ends up living with the girlfriend's mom alone

[00:43:09] Which is where he starts in episode one is where when you meet him and that's kind of where you are right? That's where I am

[00:43:15] Yeah, makes sense to color

[00:43:18] It helps color all of what's happened so far with

[00:43:21] Martha it's so intra because I think we we talked a long time about one aspect of the show, but you know there are other

[00:43:28] Uh two from like the woman. He's dating to everything with martin. There's really a lot of meat

[00:43:34] In this show that we could go through and it's all connected in very pretty good ways. I think

[00:43:38] Yeah, exactly like one of the things that this situation

[00:43:42] This horrible event colors is how he he can't decide what to think about this

[00:43:49] Woman. He's attracted to who's a trans woman

[00:43:52] He's been on some dates with her

[00:43:54] In the in his present day and he's also trying to keep her away from martha

[00:43:58] He doesn't want that intersection to happen. I just remember to this. It's not really funny. I just remember to see that

[00:44:05] From the one where he's uh at the gay club with her and like he runs into it

[00:44:10] Like he's pretty obviously caught in a lie and he's like

[00:44:13] I'll be right back and he goes to the bathroom to take more cocaine because it's like cocaine got me into this situation

[00:44:19] Maybe cocaine will get me out of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, uh, pretty pretty reasonably

[00:44:24] He doesn't want martha and her to interact although also

[00:44:28] He pretty quickly when he does decide to be like, okay, this is going on in my life and you know, I just

[00:44:34] Want to be careful about martha. He's kind of not very smart about telling his lies because uh

[00:44:40] He uh, he is a lot of information when he shares martha's text with or I guess their email's not text with with this the

[00:44:48] The woman the american

[00:44:50] Yeah, the key fact that martha doesn't have his phone number

[00:44:53] She's just emailing and facebook messaging. I think it gets up to like 41

[00:44:59] 10,000. Yeah, it's like hundreds of or tens of thousands in reality. Yeah, it's it's wild

[00:45:06] Definitely uh recommend this show. So I had a hard time thinking as I watched both of them this week

[00:45:12] Shogun and baby reindeer

[00:45:14] Which of the two would make

[00:45:17] What would I you know list at the end of the year above the other they're both that good

[00:45:21] They're pretty solid. I'll have to you've had the benefit of seeing it all

[00:45:26] So right now shogun is is higher for me, but I haven't seen the full picture either

[00:45:32] There's nothing wrong with baby reindeer. It's well done

[00:45:34] it says uh, so just sort of a surprise from netflix because

[00:45:38] They seemed to truck in that

[00:45:40] Middle okay, we'll let our star power kind of drive

[00:45:45] Yeah, I actually

[00:45:47] Just read a fun interview not interview. Sorry column

[00:45:51] On the in the times. Yes, I saw that by it. Yeah, the mid tv one. We were at was the yeah, the mid

[00:45:57] We're in mid. Yeah, I would I would recommend looking at it and and and the some of the shows he holds up

[00:46:03] As going against this trend are shogun and baby reindeer. No way the way that the critic whose name I've completely forgotten

[00:46:10] I'm sorry, but he's like they're like they're folding laundry shows, right where it's like you're

[00:46:14] You're you're comfortable. You kind of know what's gonna happen and

[00:46:18] It's familiar versus this is not a folding laundry show. Yeah

[00:46:23] Is asked quite a bit from you as a viewer

[00:46:25] I know the subtitle of his piece was about how

[00:46:28] A lot of shows these days are tending to rely on their cast and not so much on what they have to say beyond

[00:46:33] A real basic premise, right? Mm-hmm. That sounds a lot like what apple tv is doing at times

[00:46:39] I think they kind of get it half and half

[00:46:41] Like something when it when it works it works really well. Yeah, and when

[00:46:45] It doesn't it's not that the product is bad. It's that it's forgettable. That's it

[00:46:52] It's it's unmemorable because apple's got the money to get good actors and they tend to do that consistently

[00:46:59] Yeah, I just haven't gotten the writing, you know good actors good production values

[00:47:03] Right, right, but they could kind of come out hot with a lot of shows that people were like, well, that's just fine

[00:47:09] You know, it's not groundbreaking. It's just fine like the uh, who is it the morning show?

[00:47:13] And when I forget it. Yeah, whatever that which I never really watched but I read the reviews

[00:47:18] Yeah, and there was another one I thought of that I can't think of now

[00:47:21] Well, they got the star power over there. Oh, yeah

[00:47:24] Netflix not maybe not as much star power

[00:47:27] But they just have the content they just roll it out constantly. So that's a

[00:47:32] And they truck in the middle of the road if not worse

[00:47:37] They're just Netflix brand is like we're gonna reach reach the most people possible, right?

[00:47:42] Yeah, so I see that like I mean and like this is all from this guy's column, but he made a good point where it was like

[00:47:51] Uh, he called Ozark like what if you got chat gpt to write

[00:47:55] Breaking bad then you have Ozark and I know people mistake it for something good. You know, it's a hit

[00:48:00] I've seen a lot of Netflix shows like that

[00:48:03] So this is a general surprise. I know a lot of fans of Ozark really, okay

[00:48:07] Yeah, lots

[00:48:08] Interesting my wife loves it or did love it. I'm not sure if she ever finished it. So

[00:48:12] Interesting that might be a sign. Well, that's it for us this week for Donovan and Adam

[00:48:17] And me I will talk to you online somewhere. Let's do that. Have a good week. We'll be back next Tuesday. See ya

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