'Say Nothing' Challenges Good and Evil

Hey everyone.

It's the TV and streaming podcast taking it down.

We're going to get into things in just a second.

As always, we'll have non spoiler thoughts about the TV shows we're covering and then a break and then spoiler thoughts.

In case you're worried about getting ruined on a particular piece of television this week, it's only one show.

We've got say Nothing.

We're going to be talking about kind of the midpoint to the ending of say Nothing.

That's a television show on FX Hulu, about Ireland and North Ireland struggle during the troubles of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Stick around for that.

You don't have to run away because of spoilers ever.

Because we do non spoilers to begin.

Alabama take projection.

It looks great.

Welcome Donovan and Adam.

They're here with me.

Finally.

It took a long time to get them here.

Did it?

We, Donnie and we Adam, are here.

We divided up the FX Hulu show say Nothing into three chunks and this will be likely our third and final installment about that series.

In case you don't know, it centers around a It starts, I suppose, with a few younger people involved in Ireland's IRA during the 70s and examines what that period would have been like for them specifically, as well as some components of what it would been like for a few others beyond that scope.

This is the non spoiler section.

We're in that final several episodes, but it's still non spoiler nonetheless.

We'll get into how and why on some of these thoughts, but let me start with this as your opinion.

I've said nothing changed for better or for worse now that you have either ended it or gotten really close.

I still liked it, but there was a distinct switch from the first couple episodes where it felt more unfocused.

But it's also pulling back, I think the camera a little bit, but it's not quite as focused as the first couple episodes.

So it almost not really, but it felt like there's a very much a front half and a back half to.

This show, don't you think?

I guess we can get into the weeds on this.

But that's by design, right?

Yeah.

And I think it's like by design and honestly part of doing essentially a biography for multiple people.

And I think it worked for me, but it was just like there's a front half and a back half.

By weed design.

By weed design, yeah.

I do agree that I said last week maybe some of the accusations against it is it was kind of like a thriller espionage kind of approach for a few episodes, obviously that we knew that that couldn't last.

So you're really signing up for a biopic more than anything else?

Is that it almost is fair or like a very fair, a very odd biopic in a way?

Yeah, because it does sprawl.

But no, it's still giving it the thumbs up if we're just going spoiler free here.

Oh, same.

And I'll say now that I've seen the whole the kind of like tempo and tone of the first, roughly first half of the show really works for me with what comes about in the second half or the latter couple episodes.

Almost everything leading up to episode seven.

This the show is quite solid.

Like really solid.

Top notch.

I think episode seven makes say Nothing seem like a different show.

And it takes a full.

It took me a full episode to get used to it and then realize, okay, this is what we're doing now and I'm okay with it after I got the full episode.

Since this is the really only show we're covering today, I'm gonna go ahead and draw a spoiler line.

We'll put you a 30 second break in here.

I need one last spoiler free thing, please.

Yeah, I'm honestly afraid my wife might join the IRA after watching this show.

Spoiler alert.

Dr.

Beth's joining the IRA.

All right, spoilers start now.

Yeah, we'll get spoilers started.

We'll give you a break.

We'll put you a little ad in here.

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We'll start our spoiler section here.

And maybe a good jumping off point is Our regular listener, 87 Jeddah.

He remains a not anonymity he remains unknown.

I usually don't have trouble with that word, believe it or not.

All right.

He.

He writes another outstanding episode, Fellas Red say Nothing, a couple years ago, and it's well worth your time, I think.

We're naturally inclined to view conflicts as good guys versus bad guys, but the reality of the Troubles is that it's far more complicated.

Even when taking the perspectives and justifications of both sides, the inevitable conclusion is that this was maybe is a very sad and largely unnecessary situation.

Safe to say that the tensions today aren't what they used to be, but the secretarian hostility has been lingering for about 400 years now.

And he recommends Kenneth Branagh's Belfast, which Adam has seen.

And I don't know that the Donovan.

And I have.

I know I haven't.

I have none.

Yeah, yeah.

He says he recommends it for anyone more interested in this kind of thing.

And then he agrees with Adam on Blitz that it was a great best and he was hoping for a lot more.

And I read a Good thing with Anthony Boyle this week from New York Magazine where he talked about.

He didn't want to do it unless it was very vague on good versus bad.

He kind of alluded to that in his own phrasing.

What do you think?

Does it accomplish that?

For me, yes.

Although sometimes I do feel.

And maybe this is just like, protagonist.

Yes, but not biased, but I can't think of a better word.

No, I haven't.

Where it's like, you're somewhat more sympathetic to the characters.

So, like, the girls, you know, really hurting a lot of people.

You're kind of like.

Well, you kind of forget about it, you know, or at least I sort of did as I went on and then.

But I mean, for the episode with the force feeding.

I haven't quite figured this out in my own head, but obviously that happened and it was horrible.

And I feel like it has a lot of resonance still, you know, as a.

As a nation that operates a prison where we have done and continue to do this kind of thing.

And I think it was.

I almost wish there had been a little bit more of, like, no, like, people really got hurt, but even though people really, really got hurt, it's inhumane and unethical to do this thing.

You know what I mean?

Like, the ends don't justify the means, and instead it kind of does for both sides here.

So it works with, like, the not good versus.

Or the.

The muddying, like the good versus evil.

But I almost wish that, like, we had been.

I guess what Annoys me is we've got that like 24 mentality, some of us, where it's like, you know, yeah, you can break this guy's fingers with a hammer.

Like the Batman mentality.

Like, you can break this guy's fingers with a hammer because it's gonna, you know, he did 9, 11 or whatever.

And it's like, I think that's kind of like a shitty way to treat prisoners.

It is a myopic way of looking at any kind of conflict or war, for sure.

I'm less sure of my opinion after watching more episodes, which is like a credit to the show, right?

Mm.

The characters, we'll call them characters because they are characters on tv.

They're, you know, there are real life people behind those figures, which I'm sure we'll get into at some point.

But their actions as portrayed on the show are always.

They themselves are analyzing both what they do and what others are doing through, like, the right and wrong lens.

And Donovan talked a lot about, are you a combatant or are you a terrorist?

You know, those kind of questions.

The back half of the show, they're tortured by that question.

Right.

So if they don't even know who to root for.

So it's obviously tough for us to.

I'm with you.

That when they're.

When they're young and they're.

They're doing these things, you think, boy, this is complex.

But you are kind of, if not rooting for them, you know, you.

You kind of want to see how they're going to do whatever they're going to do.

Or there's a little bit of the Robin Hood element to.

Oh, yeah, you know, running bombs over the border, that sort of thing.

It is.

It is so hard to root against Anthony Boyle.

And for.

I just wanted to chime in.

Can I chime in on Adam?

Absolutely.

For listeners, I don't know if we'll ever talk Adam into it, but he has gone mustache.

Adam's always had facial hair as long as I've known him, and it's usually in a form of a goatee and expanded type of beard.

But now he's got a very.

A very nice mustache going in the vein of Anthony Boyle in.

In say Nothing.

And.

Well, it's funny that you say expanded goatee.

It's called grow what you can.

Hey, buddy.

Yes, Donovan?

You were saying?

I agree with Adam and that the division of the.

In my mind, the division of the show not so neatly into halves, especially after the episode where they have been imprisoned.

We were young, we were Excited.

And then we have to live with it.

Like the fun is over at a certain point.

Like we have to live with everything for the rest of our lives.

And that worked for me.

If you went to prison for eight years and were force fed every other day and came back and didn't know if what you'd done was worth it, wouldn't you want a drink or two?

Are you kidding me?

Yeah.

It reminded me a lot of, you know that scene in Mad Men where Betty says, I just want a clean start.

And her post don husband Henry says, there are no clean starts.

Life goes on.

Wow.

I kept thinking of that because that's.

We always make it about Mad Men here or Arrested Development.

I know that that's our habit, but, you know, for a show about is there such a thing as a clean start?

I couldn't help but cross compare the two because.

And I don't think they necessarily wanted a clean start.

If we're just focusing on the sisters coming out, you know, when they said retired, you know, she says in maybe the top of episode, next to last episode.

If we known this was going to last as long as it did, we never would have picked up a gun.

You know, they thought that they could affect change much more in the immediate.

And the longer that it drags on, the less sure that they are.

When you watch somebody who planted a bomb that maimed people and other bombs killed people and they had people killed and they get.

They complain about the state of their jailing, you know, it's like a little kind of don and what you're getting into, like, how do you, how do you not go eye for an eye on that?

You know, because they were so committed with their bodies still to this idea.

But they exchange all of that time and their, like you said, their physical and mental health to prove a point that at the end they're not so sure about anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

Marion Price, the real person, you know, who admittedly did these things by her own admission or some of these things by her own admission, she got.

She developed anorexia as a result of the force feedings.

Anorexia nervosa.

And that's why she was released from prison.

You know, that's something that you live with for the rest of your life.

What a substantial line that we would never would have picked up a gun if we'd known it was going to last 20 or 40 years.

Is it 40 years that she says.

I can't remember what time frame.

Yeah.

When she would have been speaking.

I related to that line so much.

I mean, how, how many times just in day to day life that you think, oh, I'm going to go all in on this, but I'm not going to go all in on it on a month.

You know, I'll do it, I will help y'all, but.

But I'll help for a week.

How's that sound?

Because you want immediate results.

And, and of course, they weren't even in the culture we live in where immediacy means something totally different.

It felt very short.

Short, sorry.

It felt very resonant with kind of like the nature of somewhat organized violent conflict too.

No, almost nobody starts a war being like, yeah, we're going to be fighting this in 20 years.

Right.

And almost kind of like, not really, but like if you start a war, you, almost, almost everyone is like, I'm going to finish this quickly.

This is going to be easy.

I mean, like, look at us in Iraq or something like that.

By definition of taking up arms in the way that we often do as humans, unless it's like an armed resistance, you kind of think like, you wouldn't strike at all to start if you didn't think you could win quickly.

Right?

Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.

And so it just, it seems really interesting like how we kind of keep having this fundamental assumption about violence and organized violence and what it can accomplish and how it accomplishes when the reality is it so often just drags on and on and on or settles nothing.

There's a few things that intersect in my mind that we can not cross compare because obviously it's not comparable.

But when you look at this generation in Ireland, there was just something in the water.

If you were a boomer, essentially, that you believed that you could affect, profoundly affect societal change.

And if you look here, even if you just look at something as comparatively benign as electing Obama, and we think, oh, we've made some change and then we kind of get sold out on a lot of the things that were promised on the campaign trail in 2008.

And then obviously by 2016, it feels like it's just evaporated into nothing.

And the back half of this show felt like a very far more dramatic life or death consequences version of that.

But, you know, you're talking about violence.

I mean, if we had recorded this version of this show last week, we wouldn't have had something to point to in America.

And now we do.

Someone took violence or took matters in their own hands with a healthcare CEO and wow.

Now I'm not here to say one side or the other.

Because this is not a political program, and that feels messy and there's a lot to untangle there.

But people are having conversations now that they wouldn't have had without that.

Wow.

Yeah.

Like, we know that there are elements in our society who believe that violence is efficacious.

Like, it's very incumbent on us to realize, like, to be like, okay, what does that mean for me, someone living in this world and in this country?

I really thought I was going to be the one to first link Brendan as the folk hero to the man who killed the United Healthcare CEO as sort of a current incarnation of a folk hero.

And no, this is not a political podcast, but I'll just add this.

I hope he.

DB Cooper's the hell out of the search for him.

He's off to a good start.

Yeah, we're talking really broadly and I love it.

Let's, if you don't mind, I'm going to pinpoint some things that probably get to what we're saying in some of these episodes.

By the way, the Anthony Boyle piece in New York, he does mention some of what you're talking about as far as the ira, kind of felt that they were right.

And even the people, they're not totally involved with the IRA believe that they were in the right.

Because I think it might have been Anthony Boyle or a friend where he heard a mom tell a young boy, go to the store and get us some milk.

Here's some money.

And he says, but, mom, they're shooting.

And she says, well, they're not shooting at you now, are they?

They're not.

They're not trying to kill you?

No.

Are they?

Right.

And that's.

That's it.

Right.

Yeah.

You know, they're not bombing cars because.

Because you're getting milk.

How much money went into the IRA from America?

Interesting question.

Don't know.

A lot.

Tons.

Private.

Private citizens thinking, oh, they're fighting the just cause.

None.

And obviously every act of violence would have.

Would push the needle one way or the other.

Okay.

If a viewer like me, we'll go back to kind of where we started.

If viewer like me is ignorant to the history of this.

The hunger strike episode and treatment of Dolores and Marion shocked me to the phone.

I think it is the best episode of the series.

It's really blind of me to say and kind of dumb, but I don't know that I've considered British London jails being as harsh or bad when it comes to Americans versions of those, but.

Who do you think invented jails?

Well, I mean.

Right.

That's blinding me to say, why isn't it the case that.

And again, blind, stupid.

I'm not a world traveler, but cops don't carry guns in England, do they?

Not routinely, but they have access to firearms.

Exactly right.

Yeah.

I knew they could grab one if they needed it, but it's not like on their person.

Not usually.

I don't think, Adam, you could vouch for this.

You've been there more recently.

If you're in an area that's secure, you definitely see like submachine guns and that sort of thing on people.

But you don't.

Like an average beat cop.

I don't think so.

He just carries the stick that he'll hit you.

How many times did you get the stick?

The billy club.

The knee still isn't the same.

Hunger strikes, a method of protest for the Irish since the Middle Ages.

That's taken from Keith's book, which the show is based on.

I was enthralled by the episode.

It's a hard watch at times.

And knew when they sat her down, excuse me, they sat Dolores down in this chair, exactly what was going to happen.

I knew it was going to lead to that.

Not because I have knowledge of the situation, but just like as soon as they said hunger struck, I was like, well, they're probably going to force feed you.

And if I'm not mistaken, they can also force feed these days, which was really going to creep me out.

If they'd done this through your nose.

They do a tube through your nose, it's easier to keep the person from trying to spit it out or choke on it.

Yes.

I think that's a very modern way.

Since 9, 11, I was going to.

Say, I believe the United States has used that against prisoners.

And if you've ever had.

If you've ever been hospitalized and had to have that tube in your nose, down your throat, it's not fun.

It's not something you ask for.

It's horrific.

Yeah, it is.

And they fill your belly with whatever that protein juice or whatever powder they have there.

I mean, it's really right.

Like, it's the last.

It's stripping away the last piece of bodily autonomy you have.

Right.

It's taking away one of the only choices you have.

Now you have no choices.

And that's a weapon.

Yeah.

It even played at times, the Mirror.

We could hold up to what's going on with women's rights in our country in different countries, you know, because there was a couple of moments in that episode where they were like, no, no, no.

This is our body, you know, can't we at least do this?

Yeah.

And because that was such a great episode in such a perfect microscopic view, taking two characters and showing you a reality you might not have thought of, and it gives you a broader view of what was going on.

I found episode seven so jolting and hard to get used to.

And at the time I thought, this is not that good.

Is this the direction they're going in?

I don't.

I don't.

Am I on board with this at all?

Episode 7's Theater People.

Great concept of what's happening as some of these actors in the IRA age, they're putting on a show, and not least of which is Jerry Adams.

What a smug guy they got to play him.

That was perfect casting.

I don't know that I was that big of a fan of such a time jump.

It gave a violent montage that conveys the issues of the show in quick succession.

I thought it might have spread itself too thin for a little bit.

This is not an option for the creators, but they could have used, you know, two or three more episodes, I think, to kind of flesh out the.

The 80s.

It's funny you say that because I was like watching this, I was like, it could.

I almost never say it, but like, it could have used one more, you know.

Yeah, it was good enough.

Jolting from going to 22 year old Marion to her final 10 or 15 years.

Well, she would have been in her 30s at the point that they leave the younger actress.

Oh, you're.

But it's the same.

It's the same actress they've used since she was a teenager, so that's correct.

Yes.

Yeah.

They've been in 10 years, right?

It was eight years, I think.

So close.

It actually did work for me though, Blaine.

And I agree with what you said.

Where it did feel it like kind of got off of Gene McConville a little.

Like there was a little bit like you were doing.

I got the thread and then the thread moved around a little bit.

But it did actually work for me.

Where it kind of feels like life is slipping away from you after an experience like that in prison.

Nice.

That worked for me.

That was the same effect that it gave me that it was.

It was very jarring.

I agree.

I somehow agree with both of you that it was really jarring.

But, you know, like we.

We said initially, the interviews provide this aspect that we knew was had to be coming later in the story of like, remember when we were young hots doing adventurous Things and like, now we're kind of having to live with the consequences of it.

And that every year goes a little faster than the one before it.

And so, yeah, that sudden waking up and being older and having these problems that you have, real life stuff, but also profound PTSD and whatever bodily scars you carry from eight years in prison.

All of these things on top of your, I don't know, system that you view the world as crumbling because, you know, you have this deep resentment of all your old pal Jerry.

And kind of the whole structure of your life is they do such a good.

In a way, if it wasn't so violent and it wasn't real life, it's such a good explanation of getting older.

In the extreme, obviously.

In the extreme.

No.

Yeah.

I agree with you, though, Adam.

It is.

And even, like the montage itself, you said it so perfectly, like, every year goes a little faster than before.

Even in the art montage, where the years are ticking, it starts going faster as the years keep going.

And I think Adam nailed exactly why they did that.

The show would have taken a step into greatness, I think, if it could have given us either a wider view or a much more microscopic view.

I think a focus maybe solely on Maran and Dolus had a lot of potential or an episode that showed more of people like Jean McConville and her kids.

Like, that's.

I get why time, resources, funding, episode numbers, but, you know, Jean McConville was not the only person that happened to.

And a couple of others.

Had you gotten four more episodes, you could have done probably something like that.

Yeah, the.

My only.

Maybe not criticism, but I like, there was a bit where it felt like Jean had kind of fallen into the background.

And I didn't love that because I felt like the first ones be more.

Even though they were more focused on Marian and Dollars kept reminding us that, like, hey, this happened.

His person disappeared.

This woman disappeared.

They were involved in this.

And I think it did a good job of it without overwhelming it.

But, you know, I didn't.

I don't write for tv.

Maybe it would have overwhelmed it.

Maybe they felt like it would have been too much.

The episode that really only happened in the prison because, I mean, there's.

There's some heartbreaking moments where they let the sisters be together.

Yeah.

You know, their mom dies, and then they're holding each other and they think we're going to die.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, she really thinks, you know, that morning when they finally come in and say that they're going to transfer them and they can eat again.

I mean, she.

She thinks that she's holding her dead sister and we think that possibly she is holding her dead sister for a few seconds and that they're just reduced to these small girls who are up against an empire, you know, in that moment.

And if you.

If you have the.

This is tricky to say because it's obviously real life stuff, but if you're outside of that room, you lose the power of that.

Like they have to be human for this whole story to be as messy as it can possibly be.

Yeah.

And I agree with Adam in that they made a good choice with that one.

Just being Marion Dollers for exactly.

Exactly what Adam just articulated.

I would even recommend that one episode to viewers who only wanted a piece of the story if they knew a little about Marianne Price.

I would say you can watch this.

It's a standalone.

One thing I did love about theater people, despite it felt like going in the wrong direction for a second, is this examination of how we become less radical as we age.

You know, with Jerry it's super obvious, but with Dolores, it's complicated issue.

She still has the death of Joe and Seamus and Kevin haunting her.

But then there's Marian and she's telling her sister, you know, don't drink.

That's not good for you.

You're drinking because of your past.

And she's also helping with.

With the kids, but she's still in the background teaching people how to make bombs.

Yeah.

She's stayed committed.

Yes, she did.

I liked how they did.

This is.

I'm sorry, this is not at all to your point, Blaine.

But I was just thinking about the two sisters relationship.

I really thought they did a good job without like rubbing your face in it of portraying, you know, Marian kind of followed Dollars in.

Oh, yeah.

But Marian's the one with staying power and $ism and how that complicated and just like the complication of that.

Right.

Cause I mean, I do think there's an almost unspoken thing where.

With Marian.

Where, like, I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for you.

I followed my sister and then her sister, you know, maybe in her view, abandons her.

Right.

Gives up.

Yeah.

Whether.

Whether she has to or whether it's by.

It's great.

It's great to get a full story.

I would say this one's close enough to a full story.

It's not necessarily a rich one.

And it's.

I don't think it's a fault of the creators.

It's just what they had Time to do.

Well, it kind of turns into a takedown of Jerry Adams.

Yes, it does.

Which I was like, wait, is that what this show's about now?

It's really attempting a fine line between portraying him as a new villain kind of antagonist figure and focusing on his betrayal to their beliefs and desires of the cause.

It's, you know, sometimes he's just a villain and sometimes it's like he had to change or, you know, or nothing was going to happen ever.

I mean, that's the question that plagues all of us both in issues large and small.

Right.

Like, is your North Star your.

Your pure youthful self or is it.

Are we supposed to change and evolve?

Adam, you mentioned Reddit's complaint straight from Ireland itself, and I'm in agreement it might be biting off more than it could chew.

A treatment like the Wire is where more details and expansion of seasons and it would blur more of who's right and who's wrong would have been amazing.

I keep thinking that.

Blaine, a lot of your complaints are or criticism seemed to be that it took the middle road.

And obviously it has a source text that we haven't read, but it took the middle road between a sprawling, multi season Wire esque program and something like Belfast, which I know you guys haven't seen it and I strongly recommend y'all watch it, but yeah, I'd love to.

Just about one family and one child's experience, really, which lets you get away with a lot of, you know, to tell a simple story, to do anything simply, you have to have a profound understanding of it.

Right.

Like that's the whole thing.

If you really know something, you can explain it to a child.

Yes.

Yeah.

That story deals with that on the face.

So you have that version and then you have say nothing and then you have something sprawling like, like a wire or Treme or whatever.

And to me, for a one season book adaptation, this did as well as it could.

But I understand your critiques there.

Yeah.

It's not one story with many layers, but several stories with each one or two layers, I think is what you end up with.

Well, and you're also the decision to make it now when parties involved are still living is like obviously more pieces will get added to the puzzle, presumably as people die.

Right.

I mean, isn't there more to come.

Out probably with the Belfast project?

Yes, I think so, yeah.

And I don't know.

Did you see the news this week?

Did not.

Marianne Price is taking legal, wants to take legal action against the show for a depiction of her in the last.

Episode we'll sit on that information for.

I thought that was.

Thought that was interesting.

Dollar says in the penultimate, penultimate episode about Jerry, he talks about peace and justice and he can't even tell the fucking truth.

I just found it very interesting that they're trying to equate peace, justice and truth all into one.

Almost.

Mm.

But is that.

That's almost like the.

Have you guys ever seen the.

It really comes from the freelance world.

You can have cheap, good, fast.

Yes, that's right.

For like, three options.

It's like, pick two.

Like, is it almost the same with those three?

It could be like, is the truth the truth is, like, the least.

Again, we're talking about simplicity as, like, this ideal.

But truth is the least simple thing, Right?

Like, it's the most simple, but also the least.

Yes, I agree with that.

I tried my best to apply the old Matt Zoller sites method.

What's its intent?

Does it succeed and was it worth it?

And its intention is to present the Troubles as multifaceted.

But I think it might have gotten too disparate with its various faces of the Troubles.

But of course it's worth it.

So it.

Two out of three I thought was, you know, pretty good, especially considering it held my interest and all.

See, I feel that they threw a lot down on the table and ended up pulling it all together by the end.

Yeah, I thought it was close.

Just a little.

It felt disjointed to me a little.

But I think it kind of has to, Right?

Yeah.

Maybe this is not like, you know, it's the opposite of like a World War II movie where there's, like a clear march across, like, there's an arc of, like, these inciting incidents happened.

Here's your bad guy.

March across this landscape.

Win like it's supposed to.

It just.

It's these people's entire lives.

Yeah.

There are some scenes that knock it out of the park in this show.

The best scene for me, not the best episode, which I chimed in on, the best scene came in that penultimate episode where the 10 kids find their mom's remains.

I thought that was powerful stuff to spot, not even knowing a lot about each of those characters.

It did a good job of what it had.

I think you don't need to know too much about those characters.

You don't.

Right.

It's like their mother disappeared.

You get that?

The person who took care of them.

Mm.

I think that family had problems with the show.

Right.

Oh, did they?

One of the sons, Michael, maybe didn't like it.

You know, he said, my mother's death is not entertainment.

Which is fair.

That's a fair thing to say.

The showrunners and writers have said they have had conversations with others of the family trying to say how they're going to do it and be respectful.

But I mean, of course, across 10 people, you're going to have a spectrum of feelings about that.

Of course.

Well, it really gets down to what is.

And even with the interview project, what is story.

Story is the most powerful thing that you have.

But at the same time, I could understand why you wouldn't want, you know, let somebody else tell their story, let me have my life kind of.

I can even see how you don't want it to be at the lake.

You remember how, like, the AV Club used to rank individual episodes.

Like, somebody being like, I give the episode about my mother's brutal murder.

Plus, you know what?

Where it's just.

It's like commodifies it totally.

I have Hulu, the not free version.

I sit through ads.

Oh, really?

Right, right.

You know, I mean, it just.

When you zoom out and you think about that, it's like, man, this is like, I am being told an important story, but I'm also being, like, advertised too, for insurance.

You know, this is.

This is weird, right?

They're not making this solely out of the kindness of their heart.

Right, right.

Disney's not putting money into this out of the kindness of their heart.

Phenomenal job by casting, though, for older IRA members.

Especially when it comes to Marion, it's as if they were able to realistically age a younger actress.

I.

They did a great job with Dolers Marion and Brendan.

Like, they really look like.

Like you're like, okay, I see it.

You know, I'm not Blaine.

I think Marion is the strongest.

The way that she.

Both actresses have the same countenance, expression.

The mannerisms are.

Yeah, right.

And it's not even.

Mannerisms would be, like, the easiest thing to copy.

Right.

Like, oh, you hold a cigarette this way or you this way.

That emotions were shown or withheld or she was somebody, the younger actress who really did a good job with things kind of washing over.

I felt that was a strong suit of her performance.

And the.

Yeah, the.

The older actress, man, they're both so good.

They were both good.

I was really interested in younger Mary, and I'd never seen that actress that.

I remembered the mural of Brendan Hughes, that's an actual mural.

Young Anthony Boyle used to see it when traveling.

It's powerful stuff.

Then he plays it in real Life.

So interesting that these.

A lot of these actors and actresses are.

Obviously, they're Irish, but some of them are from Northern Ireland.

And I just wonder.

Yeah.

Do they feel like they're stepping in a minefield?

I mean, you're kind of kicking the hornet's nest right.

When you're signing up to play these stories on screen.

Yeah.

That might be why Boyle pointed out he wasn't going to take the acting job unless it was showing not both sides, but that it was a complicated situation.

Yeah.

Which makes sense.

Just like Adam said.

I mean, like, we're.

These are literally people who live side by side in the sense that, like, the British were putting up walls between.

Right.

Like different ethnicities, groups and neighborhoods.

And it's like you could.

You could walk.

Like, if there wasn't a wall there, you could walk and see it lies very close together.

I think I would assume it's something that it.

I had to learn about this this year, yet.

I knew a lot about the Berlin Wall growing up.

How old were you when Clinton was president?

I can't do the math off the top of my head.

Yeah.

Oh, I was in.

I was 12, 13 through 16, 17, 18.

Okay.

Because I remember.

I'm just surprised because I just.

With the Clinton being such a big part of the Good Friday Accord.

I'm sure it was on the news.

I was just at that age where I was rambunctious.

Yeah.

You had other stuff.

You had other stuff going on.

My dad was in the military and went to Bosnia with the peacekeeping mission.

And he said something that.

Which I thought was kind of interesting.

This would have probably been 1996 into maybe spring 97.

And the troops.

The soldiers.

The American soldiers really liked the cranberry song Zombie.

Yeah.

Because they felt like it described what they were seeing in Bosnia where they.

They were like.

To me, to the outsider, you.

You folks are all the same.

I don't understand why you're killing each other.

And I thought that was kind of interesting because obviously to those folks, there are big.

I mean, there are differences big enough to kill someone over.

It's easy, really easy to think that.

Yeah.

Why is this happening?

Why you look exactly the same.

Can you even tell who's who?

Well, that's.

It's funny you say that because, you know, obviously there was the.

In Bosnia, there's a religious element as well.

Right.

With the Serbs are mostly Christian versus you have Muslim populations.

And he'd have soldiers that would.

Like.

My dad can remember his soldiers on patrol being like, sir, they all look White to me.

Like they couldn't figure like that level of difference was really confusing to American soldiers who are.

Who.

Because we under.

We have a different portrayal and understanding of race a lot of times in our country.

I think that gets us to the end of what I would want to say about.

Say nothing.

Everything that I loved and I wouldn't even say disliked.

Everything I loved and thought could be better I've already said and either continues or improves in the.

In the last episode.

One of the things I actually liked from.

For myself with this show is because I like.

I knew some of this, but there was a lot I didn't know.

I think it's cool to have a show or a book that's like a jumping off place where it's like if you're.

If you're actually interested in learning more about this, you can.

And I thought that's.

I thought that was cool.

I love these kinds of shows.

Yes.

Yeah.

I love that about these kinds of shows.

And when they're done even halfway good.

It's.

It's interesting and I'm usually on board.

I'll.

I'll make a bold pronouncement.

This is going to make my best of.

For 2024.

Okay.

Thousand percent for me too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was wondering and that's something we're going to bring up in probably a week or two.

I'll get mine published on the site.

Top.

I usually do a top 10.

And the worst five, I tend to do those.

I do kind of love the worst five.

I love doing the worst five.

Say you.

You.

You watched Fear of the Walking Dead so that I didn't have to.

My worst five.

I've got some beef with some of these shows that made me sit through this or that.

All right.

We're here at the end.

You know, I know for a fact from being online that people hate banter.

They say put it at the end.

Guys, do y'all want to talk about Alabama not making the playoffs?

We didn't deserve to make the playoffs.

I was ready to give you guys marching orders on.

On things to.

To consume now post say nothing.

Well, Belfast, you've given me a stat that sounds like a great.

You guys got to watch Belfast.

You got to watch the wind that shakes the barley.

Kelly Murphy's in that one.

Great.

I've seen that one.

That's good.

Yeah, that one's good.

You got to watch kneecap.

Yeah, yeah, that.

Okay.

I thought of that recently because Talk.

About year end list.

That'll.

That'll be on it for film for me.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

I wish I watched enough film to make that kind of list, but I don't.

And you got to watch Derry Girls if anybody out there.

Oh yeah, I've watched first watch that.

You got to.

It's funny that this is the first.

This topic has been like circled around a lot.

Like you don't get a lot of firsthand accounts of the troubles in mass media and so now we have all of these things and now say nothing.

Finally took it head on.

So if this is your entry point, like Donovan said, step back and enjoy kneecap.

Step back and enjoy Dairy Girls.

You gotta watch normal people.

Oh wait, that has nothing to do with the trouble.

Sorry.

Yeah.

You guys compile some some list for us.

We'll give that some air time soon we'll end here.

It doesn't have to be all Follow us on social media.

Reach out.

Say hello.

Of course the podcast is in your favorite podcast app every Tuesday, except for an occasional break which will I probably have one coming up for the end of the year.

We'll talk to everybody else soon.