What Does 'Ripley' Say About Today's America, Art, and Class?

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone, it's Taking It Down, the TV and Streaming Podcast for The Alabama Take.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a week of change. Let's talk about social media for a second. It's

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: horrible. You really never know what you're gonna see or get anymore unless you click a certain button or have it set up

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: a certain way and nobody wants to fool around with that.

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[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Subscribe and don't rely on social media for what's going on.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Though you can because we post there too.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Difficult week. Thank you to anyone who has reached out to me.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: To many, to name one by one. Thank you though.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been wondering about how we've changed evolutionary speaking.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's what makes us different than the rest of the animal kingdom.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This knowledge, this idea that we think there's a future that can be to our detriment,

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but it can be also lovely thinking and reasoning.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I think technology is outpaced our evolution with how we

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: can think and reason. We're not supposed to maybe think and reason quite that much.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That quickly, that many times per notification.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: What we're doing today is concluding some talk on Ripley. Of course before we spoil anything

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll talk generalities and then get into Ripley in general and then

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll talk spoilers so you won't be ruined if that's the case. If that's what you want.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get the show started.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll have a take projection.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay now I am joined by Donovan, no Adam, just Donovan.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Prego.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There he is. Pronto. So what's the difference between prego and pronto?

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Prego means that you're pregnant.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Pronto is a kind of pasta.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But they answered the phone in Ripley with pronto.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Pronto.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Lovely. Beautiful language by the way.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Non-Italian speakers may not notice. The professor's name, I'm sorry the inspector's name

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: translates to Mr. Ravioli.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No it's not true.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah absolutely it is.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you joking with me?

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No I'm dead serious. Mr. Ravioli.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Shit.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Shit.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bit where he goes to the Termina.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Now the movie wants you to think that's a train station but Termina actually means end.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So he goes to the Termina, De Roma, the end of Rome.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He's tired of Rome.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: He wants to go to the edge of it and then I don't understand what that is back I suppose.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh wow well we're into it aren't we?

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Save some of this.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I do the intro in the front end and then I also do some hello's with Donovan and Adam.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I do have a question for Donovan to-

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh I'm ready for it.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a big one.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's uh have you watched any of Bad Monkey which is the Vince Vaughn show on?

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I've sworn to myself I'm going to watch the first one because I do actually like Vince.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I do actually like Vince Vaughn and Bill uh-

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Bill Lawrence.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh heck.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Bill Lawrence.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks I was like I almost called him Bill Willigan which is a completely different person.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Bill Lawrence is usually like there's a little actually this this is a complete sidebar.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No it's wonderful because I want to talk about Bad Monkey but I haven't watched it either so

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: here's why we're gonna talk about it.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking like the Bill Lawrence knock-on effect is so powerful that there are two

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: currently two different commercials for two different things that don't really make any

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: sense if you haven't watched two of his shows respectively Scrubs and Ted Lasso.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I watched a lot of football yesterday and I'm like that's that's cultural impact right there.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it is.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I know uh at least one of the commercials.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Because because there's the well you know they've had uh Zach Braff and uh the guy who

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: played Turk who's uh Donald Faison I think together in T-Mobile commercials and it's like

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering what like a Gen Z or watching this is like like this is just meaning like

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: who are the why do you these guys best friends I don't get it.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So you need to know your Scrubs and now there's State Farm you know Jake from State

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Farm commercial with Danny Rojas.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: From Ted Lasso he's explicitly called Danny and he events a soccer football

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: fusion.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I managed to miss that one yesterday.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the reasons why is because you look down well not necessarily but I watched

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Clemson and Georgia via Direct TV we have Direct TV streaming and they had a 4k

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: production of that game that had no commercials and I was like oh nice this is nice yeah

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and I turned the volume kind of down and I was like okay when they go to commercial

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: they just show the stadium like in 4k how red did Davos swing his face again.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what in 4k those things are not as red as they appear not as poor tech

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: it's it's not that red like George's uniforms are not as red as that's upsetting I was

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: cuz I was hoping Davos was gonna blow a gasket on the side at one point.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Well let's be honest I predicted in my column from Friday that this would

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: be the game that might end his career and drum roll.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's not super wrong because he very clearly is uninterested in dealing with the

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: modern college football landscape especially the transfer portal and he's made that very clear

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and these are they're getting these results now and he and he's he's he's made it clear

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: he's not gonna stop.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And the first time ever I'll say this about Davo I don't blame him.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like a headache.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't blame him either but also at the same time it's like either you know okay you're gonna

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: keep taking Clemson's millions then adapt you don't want to do that then retire.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You know there's go coach high school football do something else or I'm a little I do have a

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit because I was thinking like with Nick Saban right as the game has adapted

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: he's adapted and he's taken our millions probably deservedly so and then at a certain

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: point he's like no I'm retired yeah I don't want to deal with this anymore.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So there you go like it's not like he's gonna be you know Davo's not gonna be on the

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: street with his hat in his hand if he retires tomorrow he's got millions of dollars.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: This goes into our Ripley conversation my next question is wouldn't it be nice if we

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: could all do that where we're like no I'm kind of tired of the adjustments.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Goodbye.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm wouldn't that be nice.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think about the idle wealthy every day.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah but yes no I initially started with Bad Monkey you and I are both very interested

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because of Vince Vaughn and Bill Lawrence we just haven't watched it yet some complications have

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: ever have arisen but.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard like decently good buzz about in the sense of like don't watch it for the plot

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not a plot show oh it's like it's like if you're having it's like a vibe yeah like

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you're having fun watching.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I got that sense from the first five minutes I did just watch the first

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: five minutes to see what it was going to be like and look a vibe with Vince Vaughn okay.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm completely fine with that you know some books are a vibe do you read Do You Lay As I Lay Dying

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: for the plot?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I certainly don't I can't remember what happens I don't even remember if they bury her.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Explain the plot to The Sound of the Fury to me is my question I mean don't but.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That's an Adam question.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Well it is you know I wrote a 12 page research paper on that novel.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: A Sound of the Fury?

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh huh.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty good.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I don't remember it but it's okay.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes Bad Monkey will probably be next week's fodder we think it's quite possible.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite possible.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: By the way talking about reviews right before we jumped on Mike I just clicked on Vulture

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and glanced at the star ratings that they were giving the four episodes of Bad Monkey

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were like four out of five and then the most recent one was five out of five.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like okay this is I'm in you know.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like Mitt Winvins Bond is in something that plays to his strengths.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: He's he's actually really funny and I feel like Bill Lawrence has demonstrated at this point

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that he knows how to write stuff that plays to his actor's strengths.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure he knows how to cater to the crew.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly exactly he knows what like I mean look at like scripts back in the day right

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like he knew what Zach Braff was good at and what he wasn't good at.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He knew what Dr Cox was good at what he was you know he just I can't remember

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the guy who plays them but you know they're really really well cast for them and then

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: then the rules are written for their strengths.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah Jason Sudakis is a really good example as well.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely anyone on Ted Lasso's production.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone on Ted Lasso really but yeah I think Jason Sudakis too who is a person an actor

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that I had actually find kind of like kind of actively annoying at some point.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Not in everything like he's great in 30 Rock I've hated him and some other stuff

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: but then for this it's like he can get the accent just right he's got the

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: awesucks thing just right like really plays to his strengths.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I love the awesucks characters which does also take us into Ripley a little.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We're we're going to be talking about the Netflix series Ripley as deeply as we can

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: but before we note where spoilers begin Donovan why should an average TV viewer

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: log on to Netflix and search this one that has been out since April.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm just on a purely personal level I remain really high on this show.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm enjoying it let me if I if I could kind of sum it up it's beautiful for one thing

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you know it looks like a movie you know it's really gorgeously shot in black and white

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't hurt when you set everything in Italy.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: If you like a slow but not too slow burn thriller yeah very good and if you as I do

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: enjoy watching someone who's kind of a piece of shit.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay yeah let's dig into it some specifics going forward it's Ripley it's written and

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: directed by Steve Sallion who has a resume as well as anyone it's got credits on the Irishman

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Gangs of New York and Moneyball writing credits on those the Netflix series though he wrote

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and directed every episode it stars Andrew Scott as the titular con man as well as

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Dakota Fanning and Johnny Flynn whom he ingratiates himself with for their company

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and I bet almost everyone knows that it's based on the book The Talented Mr. Ripley or that there's

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: a 99 version of this with Matt Damon and Jude Law and Gwyneth Paltrow maybe less people know

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that there are even more versions than that like about five or six at this point I think at

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: least versions of the character in a movie. People people love taking a crack at this character.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah if I can like go into just editorializing I think this show is one of the reasons why

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: like I've known I've I've I know I've known versions of this character but I think everyone

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: is kind of like I can put my own spin on it like I can imagine this in my own way

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: which I feel like this show is doing very well so kind of side on if you have seen one

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: or read the book check check it out anyway. Let's dig into that what is it about the

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: character of Tom Ripley that makes creators want to use them to cast out their vision of

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of their world of our world of the current climate. I think that there is the attraction is

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely with like there's part of the like he both loves and loathes Dickie you know at

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: the same moment you know he he he hates him and he loves him at the same time he's got a little bit of

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: was it Fitzgerald that called you know he said like he hate if I think Fitzgerald once said

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: like the poor hate the rich with the smoldering hatred of a peasant that might not have been

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Fitzgerald but he's got a little of that but he's also got Fitzgerald. He's also got

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the richer different on us. Yeah part two is like I think it's like as an acting challenge

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's fun right like you can have him as like some adaptations have him be ultra smooth slick

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: suave kind of a well I was going to say it's kind of sociopathic but I think all versions of

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: who are pretty sociopathic but uh this one is he's a little bit more I've really one of the

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: things I've really liked about this one is is the acting has him sort of fumbling in some situations

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and gaining his feet and others uh and I think like that the the like the scary like chameleon

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like I think there's I don't have like a really good thesis but I think part of the like the

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: like the doppelganger like love hate I hate you I love you I want to be you like I love

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you so much I'm gonna kill you and take you over it's almost scary and like a cuckoo kind

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: of way right like can you imagine like if there was someone that like wormed its way

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: into you and all your friends yet you never caught them or you did but you couldn't prove it like

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: it's kind of scary too right well it's a good summary of this version of Ripley as well as

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think how many of us feel about the rich it's definitely how I feel it's like

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: fuck you you don't deserve that money but I do right right and I feel like and I love it

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and I want it you know and and this current one is doing such a good job uh like as a sidebar

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: with some of the class stuff I think whereas like yes like you can see uh Tom is there he's very much

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: a striver right um he can kind of act but he doesn't really know he doesn't really like he

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: wasn't born into it he doesn't have the the social um what do you call it not credit

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: hey he's a he's a bit of a bore at times and yeah and other people like some people can

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: like Marge can see through it okay and Freddie can see through it and they despise him yeah yes

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it this answer is what I was thinking about asking which is if Tom Ripley is America

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: what does it show about ourselves maybe our worst selves and I think it's that

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: many of us just despise the upper class but at the same time would take everything they got

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah almost you know I don't I think there are a few of us who might draw the line like

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you and I would say no we don't need the gold plated toilet but it would be nice to have

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a couple extra rooms in the house I mean I think we see this even you know like politically

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: right where we have um people who are railing against elites who look down on them and despise

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: them yet at the same time the figurehead they choose has these ostentatious displays of wealth

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: almost like you you too could be that that's right I got to some of these questions and discovering

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that Matt Damon's incarnation of the character is much less dangerous and less grimy yeah he's

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: younger that's one thing so it many of the reviews and readings you'll do about Ripley

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: the Netflix series is Andrew Scott's just a little older than many who have played him and it

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: makes it a little odd usually Ripley is in his 20s no more than his mid 20s and then he gots

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: in the show probably what 38 40 41 maybe even 30s but not as early 30s okay maybe as maybe yeah

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe as old as his early 40s yeah he's been around the block a few times

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: mm-hmm shown in the first episode yes yep uh Damon's version is a friendlier guy I

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: know I had to read up because I have not seen this movie believe it or not oh okay

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: he's a friendlier guy whom you want to see get away with some of this it's it's a note that

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: he's also portrayed as gay I think in the 99 version and that's a interesting contrast

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: 1997 98 99 when this would have been in production versus 2022 when this would have been in production

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or I kind of like that they are pretty squirrely about Tom's sexual I feel like they're pretty

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: squirrely about Tom's sexuality quite where it's like to the point where it's like you can almost

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: ask yourself like is he attracted to anything but himself well that was a thing wearing a

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: wearing a nice you know a scarf or something I don't think it matters at all not that it matters

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: as a viewer to talk about it but it doesn't matter to him yes he doesn't care that's where the lake

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the sociopathic comes in right or the like the psychopathic right where it's like

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it this is kind of kind of jumping uh I might I might be jumping around a little bit but

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: something I was thinking about Ripley you know you said like okay maybe he's kind of the tired

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: anti-hero for me I don't I don't know if I'm really like I'm enjoying watching it I don't know

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: if I'm really rooting for him though you know he's he's framed in a way where it's like he is pretty

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: dangerous right like he's pretty despicable not uninteresting he's he's a pathological liar

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because ambitious which I think is one of the scariest things a person can be

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: have you ever met someone who's really ambitious it's been a while they'll beat you with an ore

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and throw you over the side of your rowboat I've also seen the rowboat with rocks they'll hit you with

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: an ashtray exactly but I do I do think that one of that like one of the scariest things is somebody

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that I've ever met as someone who's really ambitious because other people are just stepping

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: stones to them they are means to an ends not an end of themselves and that's you know I think

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a con who said like you should never treat people as means only as ends that's part

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: of what's so scary about Ripley is people are not ends to him there is one end himself everyone

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: else's a means to whatever he wants mm-hmm yeah he's a protagonist that's a villain and what

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: juxtaposes him is this inspector who comes in kind of late in the show and maybe even at least one

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: of his policemen they play a more dangerous and icky person than Andrew Scott does as Tom Ripley

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that's my view mm like I think I would hang out with Tom Ripley I don't know if I would

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: invite him to my house but I'm lucky enough not to be rich so he's not gonna pray on me

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: but at the same time I let's get something he wanted I might have a coffee with him

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that's an interesting that's such an interesting thing the same plane because I'm

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking like if you had a coffee with him uh-huh who are you talking to

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't know exactly like what persona you get it like anything he says to you

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is he saying what you want to hear you know like he's almost he's almost like an unknowable person

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: because he's not gonna tell you any like probably the most honest thing he's done in the show uh

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in communication with another human being obviously another thing I like about this show

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: is we get lots of moments of real honesty from him usually when he's by himself oh yeah but

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think probably the most honest thing he did in the show was that letter he wrote to his aunt

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that he clearly hates right but you know the how it's the unreliable narrator thing like how mean

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: was she really to him no there's no telling you mean right but but I'm just saying that like as far

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: as like him truly saying to someone what he wants to say that like what's really in him yeah that's

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the most honest he is yeah he gave her a fuck you exactly whereas with uh with dickie and marge

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and freddy and the police and every single other person he's either trying to say what they he thinks

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: they want to hear in that situation or what's gonna give him a little advantage as he as he tries to

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to squirm through life yeah as I'm wrapping up this show his lies have become so pathological

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so perpetual that I sometimes forget why is he dickie to this person or is he Tom right

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'll have to really study on it which is fine I mean it's I don't ever get that confused but

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's it's funny that that's the case because I think that's the effect it maybe should have

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a really good something the show does really well with the like wait who is he to

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: this person because at least twice he actually gets caught because he's dickie to one person

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's Tom to another person you know and it gets him in trouble a little bit of trouble

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think that is very intentional uh Donovan I'm a one ahead of you on the series which

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: made me say what I said earlier about the inspector he not friendly he's short he's to

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: the point and you'll see how he talks to marge yeah he's a cop in the next in the next episode

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: he's not parole he's not affable whatever no and I'm not into rewriting what's on the screen

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: much it's an okay conversation I have sometimes but I do find it curious that Steve Salyon didn't

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: attempt a more modern take on Ripley or or change the setting or do something I suppose

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that would just be what salt burn or something maybe yeah I wonder if the setting itself is

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: part of the attraction you know yeah I have I have a feeling a suspicion he's seen more than one

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: like black and white Rosalini film you know sat in Italy and he's like I that could be cool oh yeah

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say this if I'm not a writer or director but if I had a crack at this I think I would go

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: pre-cell phone has got to be done which leads me to think the greed is good early 80s is right

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: before this kind of thing well street yeah wall street era kind of Gordon maybe keep it in New York

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: have Tom as a Midwestern dude and keep it in New York you know that would be an interesting

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: spin on it wouldn't yeah I'm not into you know rewriting what's on screen especially when

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: what's on screen is just fine uh Don when I know you're itching to talk about the cat Lucio

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: how did you know I well come on you and I are both cat owners and love cat that was

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: a check-offs cat right first off looks like a main good me good good oh beautiful man oh absolutely as

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: soon as I saw it I thought main dude yeah gorgeous cat they are gorgeous uh really damn well behaved

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen a cat just sit there and stay but it's funny that the landline he gets on to him

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: because the cat never moves once you get onto she's like you drug I read in here too many mice

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm kind of like like the mouse explodes like it's a lot of it's a lot of blood for one mouse

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah my cats have gotten a hold of lizard and mice I think and it's never that bloody

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly yeah everything is uh you know works in Tom's favor he falls upward and uh a lot of

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: coincidences help him it's not all his brain power it's not one of the things I've been

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: having fun you kind of bring this up I've been having fun watching this is like thinking like

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: honestly like is Tom good at this he's not he doesn't seem like I don't I think he's like

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: fairly quick on his feet but like like even through the show like we're showing that like

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: if he's in an unfamiliar setting he's not as confident sometimes his confidence gets him in

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: trouble when he is more confident he's like it's more just that he's a pathological liar

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's more that he's just like he he will not quit he's not ever gonna say you got me uh-huh

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that surprised me with the first episode not doing anything about the material other than

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: a loose little outline I kind of knew what was going to happen you know he's going to

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: ingratiate himself with these people that's about it I was surprised watching the first episode

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to see oh he's not that good I thought he was just a straight up excellent con man and he hit the right

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: con he hit the right mark but not so much he's fine again he's honestly in some ways

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Tom himself is very much like a cat great in some situations right

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: do if they're in an unfamiliar situation completely out of their depth right and it's

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like in the sense that like if he's like scamming little old ladies on the phone he's great right

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but if he's when someone like Freddie has his number he doesn't even know what to do

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: he's not like the ultra smooth because I think I do think that kind of like for some adaptations

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like the the uh appeal is like what a chameleon he is he can be anyone for any situation and in

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: this one it's like yes but it's we can really see what an act it is the show does a good job of showing

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: us that stuff by allowing him to be really good when it comes to riding or topping yeah topping obviously

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: because he can't do the riding uh but person to person it's hit or miss yeah the landlady he was

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: good with when he doesn't have a chance to prepare he's just going off the top of his

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: head that's where he struggles yeah like many of us myself and glided yeah i'm much better at riding

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: than I am face to face so I can relate to Tom in that manner uh so much of this show is

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: interpretive but not arduous in so doing and I think that's what I like I like that too

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you I'll throw out a bunch of examples pick any of these you want or all

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like there's this lack of answering a telephone is a signal of not hitting warnings

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the water as a change in you know water's a change it's a baptism it's related to Tom's

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: initial utter fear of the water which seems to kind of fade um the steps as ascension to match

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: all this religious imagery and the ring uh as something maybe eternal which could be Tom's

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: damnation that's on the way I don't know and uh that's not even mentioning the pin

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah which I haven't wrapped my head around the pin yet the ring I think is uh you know if we go back

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to our deadly sins right that's greed too something you couldn't help but take it yeah

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: nice nice pin I love that you brought up the telephone because not only is it work like it's

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: great because it's working like on that symbolic level uh-huh but by working on that symbolic

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: level it actually becomes a plot point yes at the point where he like he literally he truly

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't know whether to answer or not answer this phone oh yeah and I was like that's good

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: where you get like it's not just like abstractly like oh the I'm not making fun of moby dick

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: it's great but it's like the whale is god uh but that doesn't really have anything to do with

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the story whereas here it's like which I'm not saying but moby dick is great I that was just

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the first metaphor I could think of off the top of my head it's great actually a bad example

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: a terrible example because it's like the whale is god and also that's really important for the

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: story Zaelian and his director photography frames almost every bit of the show in an

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: artistic fashion and I'm saying that yes maybe capital a uh it's to mirror art you know you could

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: pause any moment and it could be a painting or look beautiful and I wonder often what's

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: meant to be taking from so much of the pairing of art uh Carvaggio specifically with numerous

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: aspects of the narrative and plot and framing part of what I think with the yeah capital a art

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: framing is well first off when they cut away and disrupt their scene a little bit it has a great

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: effect like when uh they cut away very quickly to the blood that has splashed on a picture right

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: inside the door yeah uh which yes so it does have that effect if they choose to disrupt it but I

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of thought feel like it's like in some ways Tom is a is a little kid with his face smashed

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to the shop window looking at what's inside that's the world he wants to live in right that beautiful

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: world yeah world where you can just paddle around Italy all you know mm-hmm it kind of mirrors Tom

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe his aspirations where he's this is the world he wants to be in and yet there's

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: ugliness there's a lot of ugliness in that world too what what do you know about Carvaggio

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and his work I know there's 120 minutes from my house no yeah in Hartford have you seen it yes

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it's beautiful breathtaking uh yes when he does with light and darkness is incredible I've seen a

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: couple Carvajos uh I couldn't tell you off the top of my head that's the only one that pops into my

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: what's hard for doing with a Carvaggio by the way they have the the early the first like public

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: art museum in the United States is called the Wadsworth Athenaeum that makes sense it had you know

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: like Rockefeller money and stuff back in the 19th century so they have um the Carvaggio they have

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: there is uh St. Francis of Assisi an ecstasy where he's just he's he's just received

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: his stigmata I believe and he's being held and cradled and maybe being put slowly to the

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: ground by an angel and it's beautiful it's a really it's a wonderful art museum if you're ever

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in Hartford uh pop through it uh the the light and the dark is something really big with him right

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and obviously we saw that I mean we got a little text with that right like we learned a little bit

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: about Carvaggio's nature right like he did he killed someone you know he was on the run

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so yeah there's your there's one it fits so well with Ripley too yeah the one thing I know

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: about St. Francis of Assisi is that he wrote a little on OCD in his own little way oh I didn't know

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that yeah he's got a few quotes it could be easily transposed to OCD with the light and the dark

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you talked about and the blood on the painting as well as the floor of the steps it remind me

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so much of the John Prine line from Lake Marie oh man that's so funny that you said that

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's the second when he was a moment when he was washing uh I think it was the scarf that he

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: uses to soak up Freddie's blood in the sink I just yeah just hit me like you know what blood looks like

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in a black and white video shadows shadows and like that's pretty good line it's a it'll knock

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you down yeah and it's true a good example of some of this art melding with the television show

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: is I'll spoil one thing for you all right sadly that's the inspector visits Marge and he notes

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: a painting in the cuba style and then the camera switches to him and he is mirroring the expression

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: like scarily like he looks like a cuba's painting in so what's it saying I don't know life imitates

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: art that's too simple yeah I'm sorry I'm thinking there is something really I don't have a good

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: thought for that but I was thinking about like the way they do use art in here where like Dickie

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is a terrible artist Ripley's actually a little bit like just the the and and everyone

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in our kind of like Dickie wants to be an artist Freddie is a playwright Marge is a writer

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Ripley big question mark he's painting is he painting because Dickie painted

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it nobody you know like I think there is kind of interesting like something about yeah like

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: those artistic endeavors is is mirrored and I don't have I can't concretize what I think this is more

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: of a feeling well it goes back a little too art is only for the bridge and those who can afford

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it I think there is that too right where it's like everybody which is not true everybody in this

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: blade where it's like it's not just that art is only for the rich but like who has the luxury to

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: create art that yes thank you I meant that too yeah I had that in mind that's that's what I'm thinking

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: where's all these people they don't really have to work for money so of course they can create art

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: whereas like Freddie's not clocking in you know he's not he's not pulling a nine to five

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you know what I bet Freddie's a horrible playwright I assume he's terrible

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but and I think something maybe it's in the show maybe it's not only a certain class of people get to

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: create art that then only a certain class of people gets to say here's how the world is

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think I think we run into this in like we see this in history like if you go to

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: an Egyptian exhibit right like what is most of the stuff that we have rich people's stuff

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like like archaeologists have done a lot of work uncovering the way normal people you know

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: were average your average person lived but uh they had to do it was extra work because it wasn't

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: just preserved if you look at um you know the chronicles of say the middle ages who are

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: they writing about by and large the named characters are not peasants you know yes it

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: reminds me of the cliche histories written by the winners and yeah we're nothing if anything

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: but uh working class podcast I think I mean I punch him I'm not saying I was working classes

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like I'm not working in a factory like some of the people either that I've I know like you

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: know they'll talk about what they did is when they were younger their parents and it's like yep

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know worked in worked at a blast furnace for 40 years and then you know ruined your body and you

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: go home but I do think that there's a lot of like yeah it's it's the like who whose whose art whose

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: history whose perspective and I gotta be honest the the guy in the gal who worked at the blast

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: factory and comes home tired I'm way more interested in their art than the rich

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: who haven't done a lot that day maybe no they've they've idled their day away

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: not to say that all rich people are other but you know we get if we're using the two you know

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: throughout history a lot of rich people have idled their day away to the point where you know

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: where it's like you know it's even like considered to be like shameful to work are we a communist podcast

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: we're talking ourselves into and we are because I was just thinking there's plenty of resources

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00]: for us all just to chill the fuck out so we're we're talking ourselves into redistributing the

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: wealth every year how did they radicalize themselves they watched Ripley it was and listened to taking

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it down and listen to take it down yeah next thing you know they'd robbed a bank I think my final

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: note on the show as we wind up discussions probably as a whole is that I should have said

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: at the top in the spoiler free zone but I get really ecstatic thinking and talking about this show

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and I get happy watching it yeah my thinking and debating of it both with myself and you

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: is maybe a little stronger than the actual viewing experience though I do love

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I do relax into the series this is one that I'm so glad we went back to it like like yes

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: this is spoiler territory for all but we're in the six episode Ripley is kind of trapped in his

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: apartment well the inspector coming people keep coming for him and I loved it I love that he's

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: he's in a cage and I'm just like I just love that as an hour of TV so just like a really good

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: hour of TV I'm really glad we came back to this one and then there's I do think that it's smart

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: enough that there's a lot that it's smart enough and the source material is rich enough that

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of stuff to talk about Ripley's trapped in a cage like a rat with the cat downstairs

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah no he's he's definitely listed to melancholy and the infinite sadness

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah and of course the inspector being the human version of the cat yeah yes I would say it's uh

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I did I did like that where they're like it's cat and mouse and then it's actually you know

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: there's an actual cat I'm like that's that's kind of fun I like but to you know maybe worth bringing

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: up there is no actual mouse there is no mouse mm-hmm uh plus Andrew Scott is fun to watch and it's

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: nice to see him get his a big role uh uh he's very good isn't he yeah I adored him as the hot

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: priest in flea bag oh yeah I think he catapulted that's that show from great to astounding

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely like absolutely absolutely and there's an example of him being really sweet and lovable

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and you want to hug him and truly hang out with him versus do I like this guy that's what I have

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: liked about him where I've seen that every actor every role I've seen him play is different

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know and I do think like I mean it sounds kind of silly but like I think it helps for someone

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: who's playing Ripley is to get someone who's a good actor good enough so that like I think there's

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: something arrested development does this really well where there's like Tobias isn't the Carl

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Weathers class and he's like it I'm the last guy but I think there's something I think it

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: takes like a really good actor to show someone who's acting but maybe not that well uh-huh yeah

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I know but like the performance is great but their specific performance in that second

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe it's not that good you know and I think that takes real talent to do and then compile

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that with it's Andrew Scott playing Ripley playing Dickie yeah it's a nice feat it's good and I bet he

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: gets recognized for this did he get did he get nominated for an Emmy I know that he showed that

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot remember yes the show got several uh Netflix will note that is the only reason I know

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah we can pull it up they have the Emmy nominated thing I don't remember if he was not

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't honestly I don't usually follow the Emmys too closely yep either I was a little

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: interested this year because of Shogun I think I know Anna no that's not her name no that is her name

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah who played uh Mariko was nominated I hope she wins because I love her performance yeah yeah real good

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's all I have I got one more yeah far away I let girls yeah

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: what a line what a delivery is great of that line because I do this myself when I'm answering the

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: phone right like you kind of I work with people at a front desk so you pitch your voice a little

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: higher you know you seem like and he does like he pitches his voice a little higher he's smiling a

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: little more like it's just so good as he's trying to like kind of like ingratiate himself like

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a threat I'm just your old pal Tom he just stepped out for a minute oh did you want to

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: see him yeah you know and then the I like girls line is so unnecessary and that's not

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: not from a rider aspect but from him the character it's like huh I didn't need to say that I like girls

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah even Dickie recognizes okay this is very much in the uh like the realm of like you're asking

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of questions already answered by my t-shirt that's pretty good maybe next week we'll get into

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: some bad monkey hot you know good chance I think I promised that a couple weeks ago but if you're

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: playing along at home that there's a chance so we're done with this episode what you should do is go to

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[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: listening again and as you said y'all read that newsletter Blaine's right now Blaine is a

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: very good right like I one of the things I like about knowing Adam and Blaine is both of them are

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: really good writers and in this case I like to think that I've read enough that I like enjoy writing

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like I enjoy reading good writing this is enjoyable writing it's it will make you laugh out loud

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and it gave me a meme so good I put it up on my cubicle yeah wow if you haven't signed up

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: your mountain is that one I could send it to you if you want if you're curious as to what

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: we're talking about related to Ripley I will send it to you I have it safe it's very good thank you for

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: the kind words I'm the I'm the Daniel Day Lewis from there will be blood I'm plain smoking man

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[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks for listening we'll see you we'll talk to you next time